gooood Interview NO.24 – Kim Nielsen

gooood团队采访世界各地的有趣创意人，欢迎您的推荐和建议。第24期为您奉上的是丹麦知名建筑事务所 3XN 创始人 Kim Nielsen，更多关于他们，请至：3XN on gooood

gooood team interviews creative from all over the world. Your recommendations and suggestions are welcomed! gooood Interview NO.24 introduces Kim Nielsen, Founder of 3XN, a famous architectural studio founded in Denmark. More: 3XN on gooood

出品人：向玲 Producer: Xiang Ling
特邀编辑：陆祎（联系邮箱：luyi1993728@gmail.com），Diego Juarez/Guest Editor: Lu Yi (contact: luyi1993728@gmail.com), Diego Juarez
文本整理：陆祎/Text: Lu Yi
文字文本排版编辑：陈诺嘉 / Editor: Chen Nuojia

▼视频，Video（全文深度采访见下方文字。视频为3分钟精华版，建议选择高清1080p观看。）

Interview
gooood x Kim Nielsen

▼3XN部分项目拼图，selected projects by 3XN

建筑是如何塑造人类行为的?
How does architecture shape behavior?

所有的建筑都能从某种程度上塑造用户的行为，当然影响有优有劣，参差不齐。我们16年前设计Ørestad高中的时候，我们意识到不同空间能对学生的日常行为和交流方式产生不一样的影响。从这个项目中我们认识到了，塑造不同空间能够对人类日常行为产生引导的作用。后来，我们把这个发现发展成了我们的设计哲学: 建筑塑造行为。自此之后，它变成了公司设计的指导性因素，我们以它为设计的主旨和第一要义。

All architecture all buildings shape behavior, some in a good way, others in a bad way. When we did the Ørestad High School 16 years ago, we realized how different kind of spaces could make students interact in different ways, communicate in different ways. So there we really learned how the way we shape the spaces have influenced people’s behavior. After that it became our philosophy: Architecture shapes behavior. And it becomes the design factor in whatever we design, we always use this as our motif and premier aim.

▼Ørestad高中，建筑塑造行为，Ørestad College, architecture shapes behavior

营造平等，鼓励，学习型的设计事务所的意义是什么?
What do you think is the value in maintaining an equal, encouraging and learning studio environment?

好的想法永远是第一位的，而这个想法到底是源于谁我们都会尊重。这也是我们33年来积累下来的经验。如果不能充分运用人才，却将他们带入事务所，搁置他们的才华，我认为是非常不明智的。所以3XN尝试做的是收集所有最好的点子，挖掘每一位工作在这里的人的才华，然后将这些全部运用于我们的设计中。所以我更把自己看作是一个教练，引导设计师迸发出卓越的创想，让后将其运用于我们的设计作品之中。

It’s always about the best idea, and not about who came up with the best idea. Again, that’s something we learned through the 33 years when I had the office. It will be stupid to take talented architects into the studio and not use their talents. So that’s what we try to do, we try to get all the best idea, milk you for the best idea, and use them in our design. So I see myself as a coach as well. I am the leader of the office, I am coaching you to come out with the best idea we can use in our design.

▼3XN事务所工作场景，working sceneS in 3XN office

您每天都会做那些事情，让自己的设计思想紧跟当今潮流?
What do you do on a daily basis that keeps your design thinking up to date?

好奇心是最重要的。爱因斯坦说过：“我并没有什么特殊才智，我只有一颗激情般的好奇心。”我非常认同他的想法，我承认天赋是必要的，但是如果没要好奇心人就不知道如何运用自己的才智。因此每一天在3XN我们都尝试去寻找解决问题的新方法，用新的视角去审视遇到的问题，对一切保持好奇，其实就这么简单。

Curiosity is the most important thing. Just like what Einstein said ‘I have no special talent, but I am only passionately curious’. I feel the same way, it is about talents of course but you cannot use your talent for everything if you are not curious. So everyday we try to find new ways to see new things, to see problems in a new perspective, to be curious about everything, and that’s it.

如何平衡自己作为建筑师和领导者的双重身份的?
How do you manage the balance of being a creative architect and an organized leader?

我在3XN做了33年领导者，但是相比于组织和管理，我更擅长聘用会管理的人才，与此同时公司也就变得越来越有条理和秩序。我认为有创造性的思维通常是灵活而没有条理的，但是创作的价值就在于重组灵感的片段，获得想要的结果。我尝试聘用善于组织管理的人在我身边，从而促使公司在形成稳定结构的同时，保持活跃的创造力。

Well I don’t know how organized I am, I am a leader, I have been a leader all the time since I started the office 33 years ago. But I am very good at hiring organized people, so it becomes an organized studio at the same time. So this is actually how it works. I think a creative brain is very often disorganized, so its about putting it together the right way. So I try to help it by hiring very organized people around me, so everything becomes organized.

你如何看待形式？
What is your attitude towards the form?

我相信我们在悉尼的作品与在纽约的作品是有很大区别的。在纽约，各色玻璃高层林立；而在悉尼，虽然是高层云集，但是它们的城市肌理却很不一样。悉尼的建筑受到著名建筑师Harry Seidler极大的影响。他对高层建筑材质和肌理的理解及实践，成为我们在悉尼的项目设计的导引。每当我们在新的城市环境进行实践时，我们都会首先观察当地现存的城市风貌，从中学习并将其演化为我们自己的设计语言。在做悉尼这两个项目的时候，我们认真研习了Harry Seidler的材质处理方法，进而用我们自己的设计理念将其表达出来。理解城市的氛围，感觉和文化并将其运用于设计中是至关重要的。

I believe when we work in Sydney, it is different from work in New York. In New York, skyscrapers are glass buildings, in Sydney they are quite different. In Sydney they had an architect called Harry Seidler, he had great influence in the skyline of Sydney. He worked with tall buildings in a different way with a lot of texture. So when we work in Sydney we look at that, whenever we come to a new place we look at what is the way to do things and try to learn from that, and interpret it in our own way. We look very much into how Harry Seidler was working with texture in his buildings. Of course we did it in our own way. I think its very much about getting the ambience, feeling and culture of the place and putting that into your buildings

▼悉尼QQT项目，与城市风貌相契合，QQT project in Sydney, being harmony with the city environment

我非常喜欢多伦多的人文环境。多伦多是一个独特的城市，因为他们没有主要人群，人们都来自于不同的文化背景，这样的人文环境是非常有趣的。多伦多的人文环境和悉尼非常相似，但是自然环境和建筑文化却截然不同。说实话多伦多没有太多好建筑，所以我们尝试引导多伦多创造出一些新颖的建筑。有一点在悉尼并不常见，而在多伦多却极受欢迎的建筑元素是阳台。即便多伦多的气候条件并不非常适宜全年度的户外活动，那里的高层建筑大多都有遍布全楼的阳台系统。在第一个多伦多的作品中，我们充分利用他们对阳台的偏爱，将其演化为一系列室外花园空间。在第二个设计中，我们试着从船只和湖泊中寻求灵感，将项目命名为水月公寓Aqualuna。该项目场地紧邻制糖厂，我们从来往于场地旁湖泊的糖厂船只和水波斑斓的湖泊中得到很多启发。非常有意思的是，这个项目的业主中许多都是亚洲人，他们跟我说Aqualuna的线条和形态非常有亚洲的特色。我们在设计时其实并没有意识到，不过没准真是有那么一点儿亚洲元素在里面。灵感来自于波浪，然后客户也正好很喜欢这种自然元素。

I like Toronto very much for the people in Toronto, actually Toronto is a special city, because it has no majorities at all, everybody is sort of a minority. That’s another interesting thing. The culture in Toronto is very similar to the culture in Sydney, but the climate is different and the architecture is very different as well. There is not so much, to be honest nice architecture in Toronto. So there we actually try to lead the way to something new, to come up with some ideas about what could be relevant in new Toronto buildings. One thing we saw in Toronto that we didn’t see so much in Sydney, is that every high-rise has a balcony all the way up. Even when the climate is not for balconies high up in Toronto, higher up than Sydney maybe. But this balcony idea we took and enhanced it in a different way to make more gardens in our first project on the bayside in Toronto. And the next building we try to learn from the ships and boats on the lake, and again it is by the lake – Aqualuna. We try to learn from the big boats that are coming Toronto for the sugar factory, it’s actually next to the site, and try to make a reference to that, and to the wave and water. Another interesting thing is that a lot of the clients for that building are actually Asian, and somebody told me that it has a sort of an Asian look to the building, I didn’t realize that, but maybe it has a little bit. It works with the waves, it has a sort of reference that the clients might like as well. So that was another add-on.

▼多伦多水月公寓，阳台形成一系列空中花园，Aqualuna Toronto with balconies all the way up

为什么创建GXN ？GXN如何与3XN协同运作？你对他们的景愿分别是什么？
Why did you found GXN? How does GXN cooperate with 3XN? What are your prospects towards them?

3XN的寓意是3倍的Nielsen，我是那个Nielsen。GXN是我与Kasper Guldager在13年到14年前创立的。那时他跟我提出关于可持续化发展，新材料和新技术的疯狂创想。我们热血沸汤，决心要创立GXN。因为那时公司没有那么多的钱来支持新部门的发展，我说服了我们的理事会，告诉理事会成员们：我们能从创立GXN的第一天就能盈利。但是当然我们并没有，GXN是在运营了一段时间之后才开始正式盈利的。另一个促使我创建GXN的原因是，那时候我们只能接触到市面上有的材料和技术。而GXN在不断的科研和创新实践中，为我们创造了属于自己的新材料。不断寻求新材料新技术新方法，这就是我们当初创建GXN的目的所在。

▼GXN创始人之一Kasper Guldager是丹麦政府循环经济顾问团的一员，提出了2018年循环经济国家政策
Founder of GXN, Kasper Guldager was part of the Danish Governments Advisory Board for Circular Economy whose input shaped the 2018 National Strategy for Circular Economy. ©GXN

3XN is three times Nielsen, and I am the Nielsen. GXN – we started 13 to 14 years ago when I met Kasper Guldager. He came with this wild idea about sustainability and new ways of new materials and new techniques. It was so exciting, so we decided to start up, I had to persuade my board that time, because we didn’t have that much money. I had to persuade them to say that we will earn money on it from day-one. But we didn’t, of course, it took a while before it became a business. Another reason that we did it was before then I was a little tired of that we could only take what was on the shelf of materials and technologies. Here we could say that something made in there, so we can look into new kind of design in new material. Find out new materials, new ways of doing things and new techniques. That’s what we are doing.

▼循环实验室，GXN、3XN和谷歌、特纳建设以及纽约市一起探索循建筑环设计原则，2017
Circularity Lab, GXN and 3XN partnered with Google, Turner Construction, and the City of New York to explore the use of circular design principles in architecture and construction, 2017. ©GXN

▼采用绿色设计方案的房屋，Green Solution House ©Adam Mork

设计了众多公共建筑后，您对当今城市的公共空间产生了那些新的思考？
Do new ideas spark towards today’s urban public space after designing so many buildings worldwide?

我总是尝试挑战新环境，但是同时我也会不断参考地域环境特征做设计。建筑是有场所的，他有自己的环境，当然也需要反映环境的需求，并让双方都不显得过于突兀。很重要的一点是，当你在设计和建造一个建筑的时候，你必须使他周边的场所变得更加宜居。有些建筑师将这一点忽视了。我觉得这一点对于建筑师而言是最重要的，实现它就是建筑师最大的挑战。

I always try to the challenge the context, but of course refer to the local that’s very important. Architecture has a place, it has a context, and of course it has to play back to the context, and not to make the context ridiculous. It’s so important that when you build something it has to make the place better. Some architects forget about that. So I think that’s very important to say to all architects, that is the most important thing, and always a challenge itself.

▼哥本哈根皇家体育场，木制立面符合当地环境特征（点击这里查看更多），Copenhagen Royal Arena, wooden facade corresponded with the context (click HERE to view more)

▼慕尼黑多功能体育场，与环境相融合（点击这里查看更多），New Multipurpose Arena in Munich, merging into the environment (click HERE to view more) ©3XN

在这33年的创业历程中，有没有什么困难时期，您是如何度过这些困难时期的?
Throughout the 33-year-history of 3XN, was there any time of difficulty and how did you overcome it?

每天都会有不一样的困难，如果没有困难的话，也就没有什么我们可以抗衡的。我觉得人类之所以能够不断发展进步，正是因为我们不断接受着新的挑战，譬如全球变暖等。这些挑战不论是好是坏，在某种程度上都促使着人类社会的发展，如果没有它们，发展就会停滞了。对于建筑也是如此，我们的设计总在发展和变化，因为每个项目所面临的挑战和机遇都不一样，而我们都需要去应对。建筑最令人激动人心的就是它总位于社会发展的前沿。建筑对社会的意义是如此重大，它历时长久，见证时代。

There are difficulties everyday, if there was no difficulty, there was nothing to play up against. I think we as human beings we are only developing, because as climate changes, whatever we have to paly up against, that are challenging us. And these challenges even if they are bad or good, in a sense that we will not develop if we don’t have something to develop for. And that is the same with architecture, we develop our architecture all the time, because it has to do something new all the time, like it is in a new place, a new climate, whatever circumstances we have to play up to. What is an exciting thing about architecture is that architecture is very much in the forefront of all the changes in the world all the time. Even though it stands for a long time, architecture is such an important part of the society, and it reflects the society as well.

▼瑞典银行大楼，创造可持续发展的办公空间（点击这里查看更多），Swedbank, creating sustainable working space (click HERE to view more)

中国是否会成为3XN实践“建筑塑造行为”的下一个根据地？
For 3XN, is China going to be the next land to practice “Architecture shapes behavior”?

这会是一个非常激动人心的事情。如果中国有好的机会和挑战抛给我们来解决，我们会非常乐意在中国开展新项目。我们实际上在中国上海给梦工厂做过一个项目。我觉得当今的中国成熟了很多，发展的速度也相对之前缓了一些，这实际上对于中国是一件非常好的事情，因为这种状态能让中国更集中精力在“质”而不是“量”上面。相比于之前高速发展中的中国，我觉得现在是像我们这样的建筑师进入中国市场最好的时机。在北欧，我们更重视建筑的品质，所以如今的中国让我们更加向往。中国是世界主要文化体之一。我的夫人非常热爱中国艺术文化，收集了很多中国艺术品。中国有太多深邃的文化可以作为建筑设计的基石。

That could be very exciting and very interesting. If China comes up with very good challenges that we can play up against, we would be so happy to work there. We have actually done a building in Shanghai for DreamWorks. I think we would very much like to do that, I think China, to be honest, mature a lot now. You can see it slows down too, in that sense it will be really good for China, because then there will be more time to really look at the best thing, and doing the best thing, not only doing a lot of things. So I think that is the best time for architects like us to come in, not when things are going speedy and doesn’t matter about the quality. Here we are going for the real thing, then we would really like to go into China. China is, I think, one of the major cultures. My wife collects Chinese Art for a reason, she is so excited about it, and it has tremendous history, there is so much to build on that we can reflect today as well.

10.

最近在做哪些项目?
What projects have you been working on recently?

我们最近赢的悉尼鱼市场项目非常激动人心，建成后它将会成为世界上最大的鱼市场，并且会影响到整个湾边的社区和工业区。这个鱼市场会将整个湾区的工业、生活、娱乐整合到一起，这是非常激动人心的！也许它会比剧院还要更激动人心。位于瑞士的国际奥林匹克协会总部很快将在洛桑建成，这个项目也同样另我们欢欣鼓舞，整个项目都在展现动态，这也正是奥林匹克组织的核心之一。建筑本身充满动态，每一个细节设计都有自己独特的缘由和故事。它也许将会成为欧洲最可持续化的建筑。再说到我们最近刚刚提交的伦敦高层竞赛项目，这个项目对于公司来讲也格外激动人心。因为进入伦敦建筑市场很不容易，从前我们尝试过很多次，这一次如果能取胜，这个建筑将成为伦敦的地标性建筑！

I think that one of the latest one we won is the Fish Market in Sydney, that’s gonna be the world biggest fish market, it’s a very exciting project that is going to have influence in the whole community down there, and has everything from an industry, the last industry on the harbor together with leisure and people and community and everything together in one big thing. It’s a very exciting project. Maybe even more exciting than an opera. So I think that’s a very exciting project we are doing. The IOC Headquarter is opening very soon in Lausanne, that is a very exciting project, really telling the story about an organization about IOC as a movement. It is a building that is in movement all the time, and has a lot of story to tell in the way we design it. It gonna be the most sustainable building maybe in Europe. And we are just submitting in the last round a competition proposal for a high-rise in London, and I think its very exciting, because it has been so hard for us to get into London, we tried for a long time, and it’s gonna be a permanent one and icon building for London, if we succeed in getting it in.

11.

有没有哪一种建筑类型是您特别偏好的?
Has there been a certain type of typology that you prefer?

其实我们没有固定偏好的类型，重要的是客户必须要有追求，追求一个特别的建筑，一个能给当地带来新气象的建筑，如果只是单方面从盈利角度来考虑，那么就失去了建筑设计原有的意义和趣味。所以不论是住宅、剧院还是博物馆或者地标建筑我们都很感兴趣，当然了我们也喜欢做博物馆，谁会不想呢? 其实其他类型的项目也能很有意义，比如我们在哥本哈根最新设计的儿童医院，它的外形看上去一点也不像医院，点滴的设计使帮助生病的孩子和他们的家人感受到不一样的人文关怀。

There is no typology, the client has to have ambition to build a project that does something different, something special, make a difference for an area. Or else its not interesting, if it is just making money that’s not interesting, it has to be interesting. That could be from residential, opera, to museum, of course we would like to do a museum, who doesn’t want to do that, or an icon for a country whatever. It also can be a lot of other projects, for example like kid’s hospital, to do something that can make a difference for sick kids and their families, and plus the building does not look like a hospital at all. So all these are exciting things as well.

12.

在这个极度饱和竞争极大的设计领域，您能否给年轻建筑师一些成长建议?
In this highly competitive and saturated design field, do you have any suggestion for the growth of young architects?

年轻建筑师首先要好奇，当然也必须勤劳肯干。出去看看世界，旅旅游，见识新的文化，并融入新的文化。同理，我们也应当去中国感受那里的文化。我觉得这样的经历会使人越来越成熟。当我还是一个学生的时候，我去了新西兰，那时候很年轻，总想着离家越远越好，想证明自己可以独立。那次旅行真的使我成长很多，所以我认为年轻学生去外面多长见识，从这个硕大的世界里学习，并且保持好奇和开放是非常重要的。

Young architects should be first of all curious and work hard by the way. See the world, travel around work in different places to meet new cultures and learn from new cultures. We should go to China to learn from these cultures as well. I think that is what matures you. When I was a young student, by the way I went to New Zealand. To come as far away from home as possible, that was the farthest I could get because I demonstrated that I wanted to go away from home. But anyway it matured me a lot, so I think it is very important for young students to go out and learn from the big world and then keep on being curious, and open.

13.

您觉得学习建筑最好的方法是什么?
What do you think is the best way to learn architecture?

我把工作室当作一个大学来看待。我没有自己独立的办公室，我在工作室的时候，总是走来走去，到每一个项目小组去参与讨论，和年轻学生和建筑师共同探讨设计。在与他们的对话中，我在教授他们的过程中也不断从他们那里得到灵感。这种平等对话的模式是唯一有效调动公司中所有人才的方式。学生们从中收获知识和经验，借用他们的才能，公司也不断收获利润，从某种程度上来讲，这样的合作是非常平等双赢的。

I see the studio a little bit like a university as well. I don’t have my own office room, I go around to all the tables all the time, and talk to all the students and all the young ones as well. That inspires me and I get as much back from teaching them what to do. It is a dialogue, so I think that is the only way to get talent up for the office, the office profit from it as well, in that sense it is very equal centric. And the students profit from it as well, because they learn something from it. So it is really a win-win situation to do it that way.

▼Kim Nielsen