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第12期为您奉上的是土人设计俞孔坚。更多关于他：Turenscape on gooood.

gooood team interviews creative from all over the world. Your recommendations and suggestions are welcomed!
gooood Interview NO.12 introduces Kongjian Yu| Turenscape. More: Turenscape on gooood.

出品人：向玲 Producer: Xiang Ling
特邀编辑：陈忱，reMIX|临界工作室创始合伙人 Guest Editor: Chen Chen, co-founder of reMIX, More：reMIX on gooood reMIX|临界工作室
编辑团队：苏昕，朱坤宇，陈诺嘉，董甜婉雨（实习） Editor: Su Xin, Zhu Kunyu, Chen Nuojia, Dong Tianwanyu (Editor Intern)

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▽ 视频 Video （全文深度采访见下方文字。视频为5分钟精华版，建议选择超清1080P观看。）

俞孔坚
哈佛大学设计学博士，美国艺术与科学院院士
FASLA（美国景观设计师协会会士）
长江学者特聘教授,国家千人计划专家
北京大学建筑与景观设计学院院长
北京土人城市规划设计有限公司院长，首席设计师
中国城市科学研究会副理事长，北京市特聘专家
俞孔坚出版著作15部，并完成大量城市与景观的设计项目；促成了景观设计师成为国家正式认定的职业，并推动了景观设计学科在中国的确立。

Kongjian Yu
Doctor of Design, Harvard GSD
Fellow, American Academy of Arts and Sciences
Dean, College of Architecture and Landscape Architecture, Peking University
President and Principal Designer, Turenscape
Kongjian Yu has design a huge amount of urban and landscape project in China, finished 15 publications during the last 20 years. He contributed to establish discipline and ensure the legal position of landscape architects in China.

Interview
gooood x Kongjian Yu

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1.
以生态基础设施规划和设计为核心的景观项目，是否有一定的尺度适用条件？比如土人的海绵城市项目大多在30公顷以上，而在更小尺度的景观区域，提出生态基础设施策略的意义又是什么？
Is there any limitation regarding the scale for the landscape projects which put ecological infrastructure planning and design approach as the core? Most Turenscape’s Sponge City projects are over 30 hectares, is small-scale ecological infrastructure project meaningless?

我家的阳台也可以是生态基础设施的一部分，每一寸土地都可以作为生态基础设施的一部分。雨水是下在每一寸土地上的，所以每一寸土地的雨水如果能够就地收存利用，就地保留，就不会有大的洪涝灾害，所以这事跟尺度有关系，但并不是说，小尺度就不能适用生态基础设施建设策略。

My balcony could be part of the ecological infrastructure. In fact any land surface can contribute to the system, as long as the rainwater falls on it. Successful collection and preservation on-site will highly reduce the chance of potential flooding. The ecological infrastructure system does related to the scale of the project, but if doesn’t mean small-scale projects have nothing to do with ecological infrastructure approach.

▽ 俞孔坚家的阳台 The balcony at Kongjian Yu’s place

当然，首先需要有一个总体的生态基础设施规划。以前城市绿地系统规划缺乏生态学的依据，很少考虑生态学的内容，比如说雨水的收集，生物廊道的保护，乡土物种的保护和利用等。只要把这些内容放进去，实际上我们已经有法律上的途径，使得我们生态基础设施的规划能够落地，能够变成一种生态红线，在城市中划定出来。

在此基础上，城市还需要另外一个尺度的管理手段来衔接，也就是说我们的城市空间的管理，也需要把上述所说的生态内容融合进去。比如说融入到城市的控规之中。比如关于建筑立面的设计，建筑本身的设计，都跟生态有关系；更具体的例子，比如屋顶花园、建筑立面材料的使用，这都是建筑设计所应该考虑的，但是对城市的生态也有影响。还有现在倡导的城市设计，城市设计主要是公共空间的设计，实际上本身在美国是属于景观设计的很重要的一部分，同时它跟建筑有交叉的内容，这些都主要是景观设计师需要解决的问题。

当代的景观设计师，应该积极的，甚至是作为主要的设计人员参与到城市设计之中，城市的公共空间设计，一定要把生态的内容融合进去，包括可渗透的花园、绿地，乡土物种的使用，节能环保材料的使用。规划和设计的结合，能解决您所提的问题，规划就是告诉你城市中跟生态学，生态过程相关的主要的空间在哪里如何去规划；那么设计则是，在不同尺度的规划完成之后，如何使用你的材料，如何设计你的形式，如何具体的融入生态的内容，这都是可以在城市的各个层面，不同尺度来实现的。

Of course, an overall master planning including ecological infrastructure system is essential. Without serious consideration, ecological-related designs such as storm water management, biological conservation and native species conservation and utilization can rarely be seen in the previous planning of urban green system. If all these are included in the control regulation, legally speaking we have the right to realize ecological infrastructure systemic planning, to transform it into an ecological boundary line and delimit it in the city.

Meanwhile, we need to realize it is a complementary part of urban spatial management. It needs to be reflected in urban design regulations, in architectural-related designs – the façade, the roof garden, the architecture itself, the chosen materials may all influence the eco-environment of the city. Urban design, which is more about public space in the current urban context, is an important part in US landscape design industry. Although it does overlap with architecture design, it is the landscape architect’s responsibility to solve the puzzle.

Modern landscape architects should involved more positively into urban design, into the design of public space, and integrated ecological context into it, for example permeable garden or green space, utilization of native species, usage of low-impact materials. We need to improve both in planning and design. Planning is specifying the area of ecological design while design is deciding the materials, forms and the way of integration, which would be realized in all spheres and scale of a city.

▽ 乡土物种和雨水收集被融入到设计之中 Storm water management and native species conservation are integrated into design More: Qian’an Sanlihe Greenway

2.
生态基础设施的建设需要大量的资金投入，并且其收效是立足长远的，短期内常常难以看到，同时由于缺乏政策和法规的支持，在项目面临时间、资金的紧张状态时，往往首当其冲被舍弃。您是否遇到过类似的情形，又是如何说服业主的？您2003年所著的《城市景观之路－与市长交流》一书，已经开始了向政府的城市建设部门普及可持续景观与城市环境的努力。在推进生态基础设施的策略中，景观设计师如何提高自己的话语权？
The construction of ecological infrastructure is both expensive and time-consuming, therefore without the support of policies, it would be eliminate immediately once the project stuck in schedule or budget problems. How did you convinced you cliend? As we know from you book The Road to Urban Landscape: A Discussion with Mayors, you started educating the governors in 2003. So how can landscape architects bolster their negotiating position when proposing the ecological infrastructure approach?

生态不是一个奢侈品，它是必须品。生态会被砍掉，这说明你的设计没有把生态真正融入进去，如果真正融入进去了它是砍不掉的，比如说你选择的一个树种它是不是有生态的含义，生态的不一定是昂贵的，生态的有可能是更便宜的，更简单的。所以你可以看到土人的项目实际上是强调低维护的，低成本的，甚至是丰产的，可以种粮食的。甚至它可以是净化水的，解决雨涝问题的。如果说这样的生态措施介入会增加你的成本，这是一个错误的观点，生态本身的含义就是更节约，更环保，更有利于自然的，也更有利于人类的。

Ecology is rather A necessity than luxury. The elimination only means the landscape architect did not integrated ecological strategy into the design; otherwise it would be impossible to do that, even a chosen tree species has its ecological meaning. Ecological design does not necessary to be expensive, it could be cheaper and simpler, which is proved by Turen’s projects. It could be low-maintenance, low-cost, or even productive, harvesting with crops. It could clean up the water, solving flooding issues. There is a misunderstanding of the intervention of ecological strategies. It would not increase cost at all. Economical, environmental-friendly, beneficial to humans are the nature of ecology.

▽ 净化水源的天津桥园 Tianjin Qiaoyuan Park with water cleansing More: Tianjin Qiaoyuan Park

▽ 丰产的景观：沈阳建筑大学稻田校园 The productive landscape: Shenyang Jianzhu University Campus

当然也会出现这种情况：由于甲方的价值观、审美观不同，你生态的设计他接受不了，比如说我们强调生态自然的设计是乡土的植被，他却喜欢用牡丹，这种情况下这就是一个审美观和价值观的问题。所以我觉得需要从两个方面去考虑如何解决这个问题，第一，设计师本身要把生态内容融合在他的设计中，跟时间和金钱没有关系。第二，当然我们要传播这样的理念，要让甲方，要让我们的社会，特别是决策者改变他们的价值观，这样使得我们的城市，我们的社会，我们的国家更绿色，那么这是创造一种新的美学或者是一种新的美学方式。比如说自行车，自行车肯定比开汽车更绿色，所以当你在公园里面修自行车道的时候，在马路边争取修步行道和自行车道的时候，往往会遇到这种价值观的冲突，要解决这个问题，并不是你一个人能够做的，它需要全社会对生态文明的一种倡导。所以我为什么一再强调设计师不光是一个绘图匠，也不光是他做他的艺术家，也不仅仅是职业的技术人员，他应该更多的走向社会，改变这个社会价值观。所以你经常看到我有时候在大众媒体上去传播这样的理念，而不仅仅是写篇论文。

Of course sometimes, because of the different value and aesthetic, the client may not able understand the eco-oriented design at all. For example utilization of local species is the key to natural eco-design but the client may insist on using peony. As landscape architects we can improve ourselves in two aspects. On one hand we need to truly integrate the eco-strategies into the design, and make sure it is not related to time schedule or budget. On the other hand, we need to spread the idea, changing the value of the client, the society and especially the decision maker. Establishing a new aesthetics may be the only way to make our society, our city and nation more environmental friendly. For instance, cycling is greener than driving, so designing cycling track in the park or along with the road is in fact a conflict of values. Then it is not up to the landscape architects to make the decision, the whole society has to stand out to advocate ecological civilization. I emphasized again and again that landscape architect is not artisan, artist or professional technician. We need to get in touch with the society, and change the value of it. That’s why I sometimes show up in the public media to transmit the ideology besides publishing papers.

▽《设计生态学－俞孔坚的景观》与《海绵城市－理论与实践》Design Ecologies – The Landscape Architecture of Kongjian Yu and Sponge City: Theory and Practice

比如说海绵城市，我们倡导了将近20年的时间，现在变成一个国家的行动，全国都在倡导、推动海绵城市，这个海绵城市首先它不是一个技术单词，海绵，老百姓能听懂，通俗易懂，琅琅上口，那么这就有利于改变大众和社会的价值观，改变我们治水的方式，改变我们传统的园林方式，使得我们的景观像海绵一样。这个例子说明，你必须要让大众能够理解，但更重要的，在中国你必须要让决策者可以理解。在中国，景观设计师实际上没有什么话语权。但是如果你用你的知识借助于中国的决策体制，借助于管理行政体制，通过这套国家的行政体制传播出去，你的学科就有了话语权，你设计师就有了话语权。生态的东西自然而然就渗透到我们城市中去了。

We have been promoting Sponge City Solution for nearly 20 years and finally transmited it into a national action that would potentially be realized across the country. Sponge City Solution, it is not a technical words and understandable by the public. So it changes the value of the public and society, it changes the way we conserve water, and it may change our tradition of landscaping, to make the landscape as sponge. This is an example to educate the public and more importantly, the decision-maker. Landscape architects are located in a relatively powerless position in China, but with the help of the administrative decision system to spread the idea, we can make the voice of the industry and every individual in it heard. As the concept of the Sponge City Solution spread across the society, soon the eco-oriented design will be part of our life.

3.
海绵城市目前已经成为“规划标配”，每个城市都希望建设海绵城市，您认为这种趋势是否也会引向另一个极端？中国拥有非常多样的景观地貌和气候条件，这一策略如何适应不同的地域与气候特征？在土人的设计中是如何回应这种差异的？
It seems Sponge City Solution is now a standard configuration of planning, do you think it might potentially push the city toward another extreme? Considering the diverse natural landscape and climate condition in China, how does the approach adapt to the local condition? And how does Turenscape respond to the the situation?

雨洪管理，本来就是把雨水资源化，利用雨水来滋润土地，同时能够利用绿地，利用公园，利用湿地系统，利用自然的系统来解决内涝问题，解决地表的面源污染问题，补充地下水。但是由于中国的这个学科很落后，几十年来规范没有改过，是反生态的。比如说我们以前的城市园林绿地设计规范里强调，雨水不能排到公园里，这就是与现在的生态理念完全相反。比如说我们的马路沿设计，堆高了种绿地、种花、种草，要花很多的水来浇灌，同时下暴雨的水又往外排，绿地的生态功能完全是缺失的。这种情况下，你必须要靠中国的行政力量来改变。因为原来我们是通过行政力量，把原来一些旧的知识和错误的知识固化为规范，现在我们必须还是要通过行政手段才能改变它。这本来是一个科学范畴内该解决的问题，可以通过科学，通过协会，通过行业规范，行业协会的交流来促进这个学科的发展，但是因为我们的民间行业协会，实际上是不作为的，所以必须要借由中国强大的行政力量来改变错误的知识结构，错误的做法，使它走向正规。

当然这会不会有问题呢？当然也会有问题，因为它可能会导致全国一套规范，全国一套体制，全国海绵城市运动。所以必须强调海绵城市建设应该因地制宜。比如说中国降雨量分布很不均匀，有干旱地区，有半干旱地区，有湿润地区。东南沿海大部分地区降雨多，它的主要问题是如何解决涝。西部干旱地区，如何解决水能够留下来灌溉，如何节约用水的问题。而海绵的概念，它本身就已经包含了如何适应雨涝和干旱这两个方面，雨多的地方水要留下来，城市像海绵一样吸收雨水。雨少的地方，也能把雨水充分利用起来，然后慢慢释放。所以海绵的概念就是“弹性”的概念，国外倡导resilience，弹性城市，海绵实际上就是实现弹性城市的一个途径，或者是一种媒介，从这个角度来理解我们所设计的景观，实际上是一种使城市富有弹性的海绵体。

Stormwater management turns the rain water into resource for irrigating the land while utilizing natural systems such as green space, park and wetland to prevent flooding, reduce soil contamination and replenish groundwater. Unfortunately because of the backward development of the discipline in China, our anti-ecological regulations have never been updated in the past few decades. For instance the regulations of urban green space once emphasized that excess street runoff cannot flow into the parks, which is completely against the current ecological concept. Another example would be the green space along the sidewalk, which was raised for planting. It needs to be irrigated in the sunny days while can not absorb any water during the rainy day, the ecological function is missing. In this case, one must rely on the administrative power to change the situation. The outdated or wrong knowledge were transformed into regulations through the administrative power so this is the only way to correct it. The development of the discipline is supposed to be boosted by science, the landscape association, regulations of the industry or communications among different association. Yet the futility of the association force the landscape architects to turn to the administrative power, hoping to change the incorrect knowledge structure and methods by it.

Would that be a problem? Yes, it will. It may end up with an exact same design regulation for the resilient city development across the nation. That’s why we have to emphasize the importance of site-specific design. For example the precipitation varies across the country, from humid, semi-arid to arid. Rain season in the southeast coast brings huge amount of rainfalls so flooding is the main problem. Meanwhile in the arid west area, rainwater needs to be collected and stored for irrigation. The concept of Sponge City Solution covers both aspects, absorbing water in the area with excessive rainfall while collecting and releasing water in area with limited rainfall. It derives from the dominating concept of resilience city and is a way to realize it. When we design landscape we are actually designing a sponge enriching the city with resilience.

▽ 生态基础设施先行：武汉五里界生态城，Begin with an Ecological Infrastructure: The Wulijie Eco-City

《海绵城市－理论与实践》中我列了不同地域的设计，有华北平原、东北、长江三角洲、珠江三角洲地区、山东半岛、东南沿海、岛屿型的地区，实践案例类型丰富。实际上我们土人这么多年完成了1300多个项目，都跟海绵城市的概念有关。根据不同地区有不同的设计手法，比如：最东北的哈尔滨群力湿地公园，哈尔滨地势比较低洼，群力新区当时地势很低洼。在建设过程当中在低洼地带留了一块33公顷的空地，用以就地解决周边城市的雨涝问题。10%的绿地用以收集雨水，雨水就不用排出去了。东北大部分地区降雨不足1000mm，10%的绿地就可以就地把雨水全部留下来。而在武汉，1500mm以上的年降雨量，这次大暴雨整个武汉都淹了。在这种雨量很充分的地方，雨涝不可能就地在城市中全部解决，这个时候就需要设计一套能够削峰、净化、过滤，然后把水慢下来再慢慢排走的系统。又比如六盘水，首先它的城市缺水，这里主要的设计目标就是怎么把水留下来，然后能够延长有水的时间来灌溉城市绿地，同时营造城市可以使用的公共空间，并净化水。所以我们结合当地地形，建立一套陂塘系统，把水层层留下来，跌落下来过滤净化。

我们有不同的，针对地方的解决方案。所以这就是说海绵系统要因地制宜，因气候，因降雨，因地形，还有不同的城市的地段，都应该有不同的措施，而不是一个模子。

I listed practical designs in different areas of Turen in the book Sponge City: Theory and Practice, among North China Plain, Northeast China, Yangtze River delta, Pearl River delta, Shandong Peninsula, Southeast Coast and islands. As a matter of fact, over 1300 projects Turen designed during these years are all more or less related to the concept of Sponge City Solution, and the concept was modified according to the local situation. Take Harbin Qunli Stormwater park as an example, Harbin is located in a relatively low land especially the new district. During the construction a 33 hectares low – lying land was preserved to response to the flooding issue on-site. In a place with averaged annual precipitation no more then 1000mm like Northeast China, 10% area is enough to detain the rainwater of the whole site. But in cities like Wuhan with averaged annual precipitation over 1500mm, one storm could drown the city. In such cities it is impossible to detain all the water on-site, so we need to design a comprehensive water management system to reduce the flood peak, to clean, filter, slow down the flow before drain it away. In arid city like Liupanshui, the main target is to detain rainwater, to extend the period with water for irrigating the urban green space, creating a space for public while cleansing water. Based on geographic information, we developed a series of terraced wetlands and retention ponds to slow and filter the water flow.

In short, our projects are site-specific. The detail design of the “Sponge System” is modified according to the climate, precipitation, typology and the location in the city. It would never be the same.

▽ 哈尔滨群力雨洪公园，Qunli Stormwater Park in Harbin More: Qunli Stormwater Park

▽ 六盘水明湖湿地公园， Liupanshui Minghu Wetland Park MORE: Liupanshui Minghu Wetland Park

4.
您曾提出希望挑战传统的城市规划方法，使生态基础设施在其他城市系统规划前先行规划，成为一个更为整合的整体。如今，在当下城市发展逐渐从增量走向存量的语境下，您认为此时景观规划与景观设计存在什么新的机遇或是回应的策略？
You proposed Negative Approach of Urban Planning which challenged the traditional city planning. In your theory, ecological infrastructure is planned ahead of other urban structures and therefor become as a whole. As currently the urban development started to convert from expansion to regeneration, what is the opportunities for landscape architects?

我2002年提出“反规划”，是针对城市的快速发展，来不及好好的做一个正的规划，开发商都把最好的林地，最好的湿地，最好的湖泊都选走了。这事怎么办？当时我很着急，于是提出我们必须“反规划”，先把负面清单给列出来，哪些地方是不能建设的，哪些地方必须尽快保护的，因为这个不需要太多时间，先列出来否则我们城市建成后再修改就很困难。

The concept of Nagative- Planning airsed in 2002. The city was rapidly developing by time. The developers bought the woodland, wetland and lake area with best quality away in one short day, even before a master plnning. What can we do? I anxiously came up with the idea of Negative Planning. Rather than the conventional planning we should firstly have the negative planning list of the city and the territory – which area should not be built and which area should be preserve immediately. It doesn’t cost much time, I might finish it in a week. In this way our city may end up with more flexibility and resilience.

▽ 《“反规划”途径》 Negative Approach of Urban Planning

那么当时如果我们的学界有足够的准备的话，城市可以比现在做得更好。我们的城市已经病入膏肓了，城市病：污染，拥堵，尤其是洪涝灾害，土壤污染，这实际上都是因为没有做“反规划”，没有把原本最敏感的，最关键的自然系统给保留下来的后果。只要城市选址恰当，有足够的湖泊，足够的湿地，那我们就完全可以解决洪涝问题。

If the discipline was well prepared by then, we could do much better than now, and our city could performs in a better way. However as we all know, the city is very sick, with city disease, pollution, congestion, especially flooding and soil contamination. It is the result of the lacking of negative planning; we lost the most sensitive and critical natural system. In fact if the location of the city is properly chosen with certain amount of water surface and wetland, the flooding issue would not even exist.

▽ 城市污染与生态破坏，pollution and ecological damage

现在是不是还有机遇呢？当然还有，现在这个机遇应该会更轻松一些，不像那时候是要逆流而上。现在各地都要建海绵城市，甚至我最近又在倡导海绵国土，应该在国土尺度上来解决问题，这个时候我们要面对的挑战来自于其他的学科，比如说水利，比如说农业，比如说环保，这是大的学科范畴。

如果我们的水利工程界没有意识到生态水利是未来的出路，那么景观设计学，这个时候就应该勇敢的承担起这样的重任，尽快将生态水利设计，将生态农业规划设计纳入到景观设计学科的范畴中。让生产性的景观进入到我们的城市，同时让我们的农业变得更生态，更环保，比如古代农业承担着防涝的职责，四亩田一亩塘，通过农业解决涝的问题。景观设计学应该从城市走向大地，解决我们的旱涝问题。我相信对这个学科而言，这是巨大的机会。景观设计学在美国最早是从土木学科发展起来的，现在应该到了这个机会，景观设计学应该回到土木，以新的理念来改造土木工程的时代。景观设计学应该勇敢的承担起水利工程的一些工作，修复国土，不光是修复城市，再造秀美山川。

中国实际上失去了很多机会，但是亡羊补牢，尤为未晚。任何时候都不可能太晚，只要现在意识到，现在就开始去做。秀美山川需要再造，需要系统的去思考，但至于是不是能系统的完成这项工作，是另外一回事，但是我们首先必须有这样一个眼光，一个畅想，一个正确的，浪漫的畅想，然后实现其中的一部分，那都是伟大的成就，比如说海绵城市就是一个例子，美丽中国这一天一定会成为国家的一个行动计划，现在已经作为国家的口号，但如何去实现，那就需要依靠景观设计师，每一片土地都要进行好好的设计。

Do we still have a chance? Yes, of course. And for me it is much easier to achieve a good result than before, as the “Sponge City Solution” is widely promoted and accepted across the country. So now, we are facing the challengings from other main disciplines such as Water Engineering, Agriculture, Environmental Engineering, etc.

Since the hydraulic engineers did not realize they are making mistakes and that eco-hydraulic engineering is the future of the discipline. We, as landscape architects, need to take the responsibility and includes hydraulic engineering and agriculture into our design as soon as possible. It explains the reason why we did some agricultural relating projects, introducing it into the city while transforming it in a more eco-friendly way. The ancient agriculture mitigated flooding. Landscape architecture should not forget its past, expanding again beyond city to tthetory, mitigating the flooding issue. It is a tremendous opportunity and I believe in it. Landscape architecture was in fact developed from civil engineering in USA. Now it is time to return and modified it with the innovative concepts, be brave enough to involve into the hydraulic projects. We need to restore the country land rather than only the cities, and to reconstruct the beautiful landscape we once have. It is a tough challenge but it is also the ultimate goal of the discipline.

We have missing out on a lot, but it is better late than never. Take action as we realize the problem. I mentioned the reconstruction of the beautiful landscape and we need to consider it systemically, but for whether we could fulfill it systemically is another story. We have to get the vision, a proper, maybe romantic imagination, and starting to realize it. Anything we successfully accomplishing would be a triumph. I am holding a positive attitude towards it. I do think we can achieve at least some of the overall goal. Just like the “Sponge City Solution”, “Reconstructing the beautiful landscape” would be another nation-wide action in the future, and it is the landscape architects who are responsible to realize it through considerable design.

▽ 重塑秀美山川 Reconstruct the Beautiful Landscape

5.
从场所尺度来看，土人代表作品中的红色景观构筑物和野趣氛围拥有鲜明的标签特色，请问形式对你意味着什么？
In place scale, landscape structures in red and the native wildscape characterized Turen’s projects. What is your opinions regarding form？

就说红色吧，当然我们并不是所有的项目都用红色，红色要是有特殊场合，要非常谨慎的去用，因为要用好它是很具有挑战性的。也并不是所有的红色都用得成功，我自己感觉有用得不是很成功。但是红色确实是我个人喜欢的一种颜色，我认为红色也代表中国。红色它可以使得最少人工的干预可以达成一种放大人的介入的效果，因为它是绿色的对比色。比如说用一条红飘带，就把人的因素放进去了，人文的东西放进去了，同时自然得到了最大的保护，景观设计毕竟离不开艺术，我们必须跟艺术结合。所以这个是不是土人风格呢？我相信因为习惯用某种元素或者是信仰某种东西，自然而然的会形成他的一种个性。我们用红色的盒子，红色的飘带，红色的折纸，红色的竹签，这些确实是很中国又很代表土人。但土人远远不止这个，你可以看到我们每个项目实际上都是不一样的。

Red is a unique and challenging color. It requires thorough consideration in specific situation therefore we used it abstemiously. To be honest it turned out to be inappropriate used sometimes even in our own projects. Yet still, it is one of my favorite colors and it represents China in a way. On the other hand, as the contrasting colors to green, it amplifies the result of the intervention. Take Qinhuangdao Tanghe Park as an example, with one simple red ribbon, we integrated a significant cultural element while preserving the nature. Art is an essential part in a landscape project, which could not be eliminated. So is it Turen’s characteristic? I think if it developed systematically from something you believe in, then it is. We used red box, red ribbon, red origami and red sticks in Xishan Park, these indeed strongly suggested itself was done by Turen in China. But we are far more than that, our projects are various from one another.

▽ 秦皇岛汤河公园设计 The Red Ribbon Park in Qinhuangdao / 迁安三里河绿道项目 Qian’an Sanlihe Greenway

6.
请谈一下您对中国古典园林这种融合当时中国文化和中国“天人合一”美学的场所景观的看法？
And what is your opinions regarding the traditional Chinese landscape that embedded the concept of “Unity of Man and Nature”?

中国园林讲天人合一，并不是说人跟自然和谐，更多强调的是人跟天理的一种顺应，把所有人的社会，人的行为，跟自然之道结合在一起，它跟我们现在讲的生态的和谐，是两个概念。天人合一不能用来描述中国目前所面临的生态问题，我们说的人和自然的和谐，不是原来的天人合一，而是更多的强调如何解决人和自然的关系，协调人跟自然的关系。这是更当代的一种理念。

美又是另外一回事，它有宜人的尺度，景观，内容的体验的丰富性。进深和空间的变化、流动，这都是中国园林空间的一些特征，一些好的方面。但是它又把这些具体的做法用在当代，显然是不合适的，因为我们解决的是一个更大的人地关系的问题，不是营造一个人的自己的趣味的小空间的问题。

The traditional concept of “Unity of Man and Nature” is more a psychological concept than a physical one. It is about connecting our life styles with the nature, which is not related to ecology at all. The problem our country facing now is an ecological one. That’s why in Turen’s projects we emphasis the way to balance human activities and nature. It has a more contemporary significance.

Of course, with appropriate scale and diverse landscape features it creates rich spatial and visual experiences. The fluidity between the various spaces allowing freedom of movement characterizes the traditional Chinese garden. However applying this approach onto urban space is definitely inappropriate. We are dealing with issues in a large scale instead of creating an interesting space.

7.
在教育领域的革命中，您认为国内的景观教育最大弊端是什么，应该怎样去改善？
You are a revolutionary in landcsape education, what do you see as the critical shortcomings of the existing education system? How can we improve it?

国内景观教育的弊端是，叫景观，但实际上它不是景观，它教的是园艺，教的是园林，因为中国本身的园林有传统基础。但是大家都把园林跟当代的景观设计学混为一谈了，这像花园跟景观设计是两个概念一样。Gardening是花园艺术的个人的营造。Landscape解决人和土地关系的问题，解决公众使用的问题，解决自然系统的设计，它不是人刻意去控制，去营造的一个园子，它应该是能够利用自然的归类，自然的系统，自然的格局，来解决城市跟自然，城市各种活动跟自然过程的关系，这是两个不同的学科。在国外Gardening是非常好的学科，为什么非得挂上Landscape呢，这显然是不妥当的，景观设计就是景观设计学。

我们的知识体系不够清楚，好多人还不理解，我国的教育体制也没有理解什么是景观设计学，所以变成只是个名字问题，但是其实内容完全不是一回事，我认为这是两个学科，不要把它混在一起。

中国景观教育教师太缺乏，突然各个学校都要办景观设计，短期内从一两个学校发展成两百所大学，两百所大学的老师从哪来？没有多少老师能够正确的教授景观设计学，未来中国景观教育还要走一段漫长的道路，需要有一批真正懂景观设计学的人来开设真正的景观设计课程。这时候才会培养出一批真正的景观设计学的学生。目前来说，还基本上在原有的旧的学科体系上，旧的知识体系上，在挣扎着，只是换了名字而已。

The landscape education in China is misleading. They are teaching gardening in the name of landscape. Chinese garden has a long history and it is very different from contemporary landscape design. Garden is an art constructed according to personal preference. In contrast, landscape focuses on the relationship between people and environmant. It aims to sovle social problems which could not be controled and limited in manmade garden. Landscape architects should make good use of natural system to balance city activities and natural process. Landscape and garden are totally different subjects and it is necessary to differentiate them.

Many people do not understand what is landscape design from the beginning. Even in the national landscape education system it is confused with gardening. However they are totally different subjects in western education structure. It is important to make a clear defination of landscape and separate it from gardening.

A serious problem for Chinese landscape education is the shortage of teacher. Landscape education is booming in China and landscape department appeared in 200 universities in a short time. However, only a few teachers know how to teach landscape design correctly. It is necessary to gather a bunch of professional people in order to foster young designers who really understand what is landscape design. Otherwise it would only enjoy an empty name. There is a long way for Chinese landscape education to go.

▽ 土人图书馆 Library in Turenscape’s office

8.
请问土人的管理构架，公司文化以及工作方式是怎么样的？面对大数量项目，您通过哪些手段贯彻并落实核心理念？是否留有遗憾？
What are the structure, culture and working ways of Turenscape? How do you ensure the design principles are applied to every project? Is any project finished with regrets?

土人就是一个充满创意，充满激情的公司，我们完全是按照学校的方式来管理，不光是做项目，同时在培养人，训练满足从国土到区域到城市到场地各种景观设计任务的人才，我们互相学，互相教，请世界各地著名的学者来讲课，国际上的学生也到这来，形成一个非常活跃的大的工作平台。

当然在这个过程中我们的主导理念是有的，叫天地人神的和谐，我们不断灌输这样的理念来指导所有的项目，我也不断地跟各个项目组交流、探讨，互相学习。整个团队需要有创造力才能够应对一年有300个项目这样的情况。

我们这300个项目其实都体现土人的特色，这就是知识的交流。我们每个月都有两场半月谈，每个院所内部又有很多的交流，院所之间也有交流。

Turenscape is a passionate and creative design company. Our design team is young and the office is like a school that people work in small groups of different departments. The structure of our company is similar to a school indicating that we are teaching while designing. We learn from each other as well as the invited lecturers and interns form aboard. It is an active working platform.

Our design principle is to seek for the harmony of all spirits and we are trying to apply this idea to every project. I keep communicating, discussing and learning from different project teams. We need to stay creative to be able to deal with the 300 projects every year.

Communication is a main characteristic of Turen’s projects. We hold discussion twice every month, not only within one department, but also encourage interdepartment communication.

▽ 土人办公楼与所获奖项 Turenscape’s office and awards

很多项目有遗憾，但是我们在不断地吸取各种经验教训，同时我们还会不断地跟踪，通过维护设计来维护我们的理念，使我们的项目不断地变成可以复制的，可以参照，可以学习的样板，我们很高兴土人在不断地自我总结过程中提高，同时我们也希望这个土人的实践能带动整个学科的发展。

在任何一个景观设计公司里都很难找出像土人这样设计多样化的设计，我们有建筑所，城市规划和国土规划，具有旅游规划的甲级资质单位，如此多样化的设计，万变不离其宗，通过宏观、中观、微观，各个尺度的规划和设计，把我们关于生态的理念和关于人的这种价值观融合进去。

Not every project is satisfying, but we could learn from failure and trace on the project to maintain our design principle . We want out project to be a template for other designers that they could copy and learn from. For instance, our idea of sponge city has been a model for many places. We feel that in some sense, it is not bad that people copy our design. It proves that our design is acceptable for the sociaty and we could improve the whole industry by promoting ourselves.

Turenscape is more than a landscape design institute. We also make architecture as well as urban design. In fact we are liscenced in architecture, urban design, territorial planning and tourist planning. No matter how different the project scales are, the fundamental principles are the same, which is merging our idea of people and ecology into design.

9.
您最近思考的问题是什么？下一步的计划是什么？
What are you recently focusing? What is your next step?

我们正在思考：第一如何将近20年的经验总结、出版，以便跟大家交流，能够形成有别于传统的一套方法、技术，最后不是通过土人来实现中国的秀美山川建设，而是会有形成一批的设计师，土人的经验能够给他们提供借鉴。

第二个，我们现在在创办土人学社，不受现有的教育模式的限制，想创造一种真正能够发挥设计师或者是学生自主创新能力的教育模式。我们要把土人学社变成一个国际平台，中国的能够承担这样的一个使命的，完成这样一个使命，培养新一代的设计师，我觉得这个比我们日常做某一个具体的项目意义更大。

We are doing a lot recently. First we are summarizing and publishing our works and this is what we have always been doing. Turenscape has been working for almost 20 years and gained rich experience in design. We have developed unique design methods and techniques during work and wish to share and communicate with others. By showing our projects to the public, there would be a number of designers who could solve China’s landscape problems in Turen’s way.

Sencond we are running schools. Besides college of architecture and landscape Faculty in Beijing University, we have been running Turen Academy simultaneously. We plan to make it an international platform, aiming to train Chinese and foreign students together through short-term studios. The permanent school site is in Xixinan, under Mount Huang. The school building was reconstructed from an historic barn. What we are doing recently is to foster a new generation of designers, who would contribute to Chnia landscape. We believe that this is more important than a concrete design project.

▽ 土人学社 Turen Academy

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