Special Interview for Atelier FCJZ’s Third Decade

感谢 非常建筑 予gooood分享以下内容。更多关于：Atelier FCJZ on gooood
Appreciation towards Atelier FCJZ for providing the following description:

出品人：向玲 / Producer: Xiang Ling
编辑：石安，武晨曦，庞任飞，亓慧，黄羽滋（实习） / Editor:  Shi An, Wu Chenxi, Pang Renfei, Qi Hui, Huang Yuzi (Internship)

▼视频，Video
（全文深度采访见下方文字。视频为4分钟精华版，建议选择1080p高清版本观看）

非常建筑三十周年
专访张永和

Special Interview for
Atelier FCJZ’s Third Decade

gooood x Yung Ho Chang

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01.
30年的批判与创新
30 years of criticism and innovation

1992年我们开始做中国项目，是洛阳的一个幼儿园。当时我们还在美国，也是在这个项目的第二年，我们回到中国，组织一个工作室。过去的几十年，大致可以推到70年代，建筑师的工作其实是管一张“皮”，这张皮往往是附加在建筑外头的，而并不太关心围合在里面的内容。今天，情况就变得非常不一样了。不但外头这层皮可以没有，室内的装修有时候也可以没有。结构、空间、材料、建造成为了一个统一体。

In 1992, we began our first project in China, a kindergarten in Luoyang. At that time, we were still in the States, and in the second year of this project, we officially returned to China and found our studio. Over the past few decades, dating back to the 1970s, the architect’s role was primarily focused on managing the external “envelope” attached to the building, often neglecting the considerations of the enclosed interior. Now the situation has changed significantly. Structure, space, materials, and construction have integrated into a unified whole.

▼张永和老师在非常建筑隆福寺办公室，Yung Ho Chang at working

从思维方式上，30年前后现代主义在中国建筑领域里是比较流行的，所以建筑师往往把做设计聚焦在一些符号上。中国传统建筑的主要符号是一个屋顶，比如北京西客站顶上的大亭子，其实没有任何功能。从工程的层面上，现在的结构设计不再是被动的了。被动的设计是不管外面是什么样子的，里面统统是8米柱网。这几乎变成了一种中国特色。但是在今天，8米柱网不再处于那么绝对的统领地位了。当时我最想要在中国批判的也是这些。我觉得建筑师怎么可能不好好做结构？所以现在的诉求是，把建筑的几个主要方面完全统一、整合起来做，同时还试图对结构、空间的组织以及材料进行创新。

From the way of thinking, around 30 years ago, postmodernism was quite popular in the field of Chinese architecture. Architects often concentrated on designing symbols. The main symbols in traditional Chinese architecture often manifested as a roof. On the engineering level, structural design is no longer passive. The passive approach involved a uniform 8-meter column grid, regardless of the external conditions. This almost became a distinctive Chinese feature. However, today, it no longer holds such absolute dominance. At that time, my primary critique in China was directed at these aspects. I questioned how architects could neglect the importance of structural design. Consequently, the current perspective emphasizes the complete integration and unification of the major facets of architecture, accompanied by endeavors to innovate in the organization of structure, space, and materials.

▼非常建筑团队成员与圆明园时期的办公环境，Team members and office environment of Atelier FCJZ  in the Summer Palace

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02.
对建筑要素的思考
Thinking about the elements of architecture

#文化/形式/结构的关系
Relationship between Culture / Form / Structure

首先建筑应该是实用的。有时候谈建筑，谈的好像是一个纯粹的文化的产物，这是有点走偏的。拿住宅举例，它既要好用，又要适应市场经济的限制。建筑师的智慧就是在这种很局限的条件下做出好的设计。如果“文化”能融进空间、结构、材料，它是建筑文化，如果是贴在表面的，有的时候就是一个装饰，就跟建筑本身没什么关系。

Firstly, architecture should be practical. Sometimes, discussions about architecture make it seem like a purely cultural product, which is a bit off track. Take residential buildings, for example; they need to be functional while also adapting to the constraints of a market economy. The wisdom of architects lies in creating good designs within these limited parameters. Architectural culture emerges when “culture” seamlessly integrates into the elements of space, structure, and materials. However, if it remains superficial and merely serves as a surface-level decoration, it becomes isolated from the core essence of the architecture itself.

▼1983至1993纸上建筑阶段，1983 to 1993 Architecture on Paper

▼非常建筑于1993～2002年部分住宅项目，Some residential projects were built between 1993 and 2002

形式对我来说并不是一个“样子”，更是空间组织的形式。它也是一个结构的产物。比方说，中国空间的形式主要是横向的，强调开间，如庙宇；而西方的空间常常为纵向，强调纵深，如教堂。又比如中国传统建筑是木构，西方是砖石，各自又形成了很清晰的一套词汇和语法。

The form, for me, is not just an “appearance” but rather a manifestation of spatial organization. It is also a product of structure. For instance, the predominant form of Chinese space is horizontal, emphasizing open spans, as seen in temples. In contrast, Western space often tends to be vertical, highlighting vertical depth, as exemplified in churches. Another example is the traditional architecture of China, which utilizes wooden structures, while Western architecture relies on brick and stone, each giving rise to distinct sets of vocabulary and grammar.

▼非常建筑代表作大拼图（由谷德团队制作）

#材料
Materials

建筑不是说越精细越好，如果你没有一个巧妙的结构系统和空间组织，你做得再漂亮也没用。

Architecture isn’t about being more intricate for the sake of it. No matter how aesthetically pleasing, without a clever structural system and spatial organization, it’s futile.

目前我们做得最多的是小木模混凝土。2000年左右我们开始用小钢模浇混凝土，当时中国建筑里很少用到木材。近年来都是用胶合木板。混凝土的表面不仅仅是可以做光滑的，也可以做有质感的。现在混凝土的技术高难点不是在表面纹理上，而是在怎么支模能让每个块板及接缝特别平齐。我们一开始做的时候只用脚手架在模板后面作支撑，就把这活儿干了，就很粗糙。现在你到工地上看，模板支架都是专门的高度精确的型钢体系，龙骨密度高，节点讲究，所以它可以保证每一块板都非常平。拆模以后绝大多数人是想不到有过这样东西的存在，真是挺有意思。

建筑不是说越精细越好，如果你没有一个巧妙的结构系统和空间组织，你做得再漂亮也没用。当年日本的混凝土表面浇得是好，我们现在也浇得很好，甚至更好，但下面我们也不太会再追求这个事情了。我们现在关注的是混凝土在变得环保以后，是不是有一些不同的使用方法，尤其是在结构上。

Currently, our primary focus is on using small wooden molds for concrete. Around 2000, we began using small steel molds for casting concrete, as wood was rarely utilized in Chinese construction at that time. In recent years, a shift towards using laminated wood panels has appeared. The surface of concrete can not only be smooth but also textured, offering a variety of possibilities. Architecture isn’t about being more intricate for the sake of it. No matter how aesthetically pleasing, without a clever structural system and spatial organization, it’s still futile. Our current focus lies in exploring whether there are different utilizations of concrete, especially in terms of structure, now that it’s becoming more environmentally friendly.

▼宁波四栋坊宅（2022），Four Studio-Houses in Ningbo ,2022（点击这里查看更多）

▼浙江未名美术馆（原吴大羽美术馆）（2021），No Name Art Museum, 2021（点击这里查看更多）

我在材料上永远有想尝试的东西。

I always have a desire to experiment with materials. 

我在材料上永远有想尝试的东西。比如说瓷砖作为一种装饰材料，在建筑表面上也可以用得很有意思，可惜瓷砖在前几十年用烂了，现在普遍用得少了，因此可挑选的种类也变少了，所以真正比较特殊的瓷砖不太容易找到。以前在珠三角有一种瓷砖，大小是最普通的，可是每一块的颜色都是在对角线上从特别鲜艳的绿色慢慢褪晕至几乎是白色。整面墙贴出来之后，甭提多绚丽了。

I always have a desire to experiment with materials. For instance, using tiles as a decorative finish on building surfaces can yield interesting results. Unfortunately, in the past few decades, ceramic tiles have been overused, and now they are less commonly employed. As a result, the variety of options has decreased, making it more challenging to find truly unique tiles.

▼嘉兴雅莹时尚艺术中心（2020），EP YAYING Fashion & Arts Centre, Jiaxing, 2020（点击这里查看更多）

▼“砼器” – “China House Vision探索家——未来生活大展”1号展馆（2018），Concrete Vessel – Pavilion no.1 in China House Vision, 2018（点击这里查看更多）

每一种材料其实都有可能利用来做些有意思的事儿，不仅仅是追随一些常规的做法。我们前几年还和材料专家张宝贵先生共同试验了用纤维加强混凝土墙板，三毫米厚的墙板靠曲线就可以实现结构上的力度需要。纤维加强的树脂类材料是未来的方向。当一种材料围合出空间，实际上是创造一种环境和氛围。所谓的场景，一方面是满足基本需要，另一方面是它能够启发不同的使用方式，即建筑和人的互动的关系。

Besides of following conventional practices, each type of material has their potential to be used in unique ways. In the past few years, we collaborated with materials expert Mr. Zhang Baogui to experiment with fiber-reinforced concrete panels. These panels, with a thickness of three millimeters, able to meet structural strength requirements through curved forms. Resin-based materials reinforced with fibers represent the future direction of innovation. When a material defines a space, it inherently shapes an environment and creates an atmosphere. The concept of a scenario involves not only meeting fundamental needs but also inspiring diverse usage patterns; it is, in essence, an interactive relationship between architecture and human.

▼张永和老师在施工现场，Yung Ho Chang at the construction site

#现代性
Modernity

建筑师的一个智力游戏，就是你怎么把不合理转化成合理，不可能变成可能。你喜欢建筑就会喜欢干这事。

An intellectual game for architects—figuring out how to turn the irrational into the rational and make the impossible seem possible. If you have passion for architecture, you’ll enjoy addressing such challenges.

在三里屯有一家西班牙餐厅。它有一个窄长条的空间，典型的进餐方式在里头是不适用的。老板夫妇在中间放了一张长桌子，所有客人们都围坐在那一个桌子旁边，大家还觉得挺新鲜。这其实就是引入了一个相对而言不太一样的进餐模式。我们有时候做设计也会按照这种思维，去创造一种不一样的做事方式。

我们在上海新天地边上做过一个室内项目，是把一个购物中心里的一个不可用的剩余空间改变成一个有用的店铺。原来33平米的场地不仅拐两个弯，中间还有一根大柱子。设计完之后，我们让使用者觉得这块空间的存在是完全合理的。这可以说是建筑师的一个智力游戏，就是你怎么把不合理转化成合理，不可能变成可能。你喜欢建筑就会喜欢干这事。

We undertook an interior project adjacent to Xintiandi in Shanghai, transforming a “neglected” space within a shopping center into a functional store. The original 33-square-meter site had an angular layout featured a prominent central pillar. After the design phase, we aimed to make the user can perceive the existence of this space as entirely justified. It can be considered an intellectual game for architects—figuring out how to turn the irrational into the rational and make the impossible seem possible. If you have passion for architecture, you’ll enjoy addressing such challenges.

▼生活方式的变化引导了设计的发展，Changes in lifestyle led to the development of design

简单地说现代不是一个目的，而是一个方法。

Modernism is not an end in itself, it is a method.

现在家庭结构在变，出行的方式在变，用餐的方式在变，即生活方式在变。多少人每天至少一顿饭吃外卖，如果你用书桌吃饭，会把书桌弄脏，房间里头也会有气味，这些可能都会被转化成一些和设计有关的课题。比如说，我们能否设计一个书餐桌？桌子上面装一个抽风机？

是否可以认为，从文艺复兴开始，过去500年里人类积累的知识咱们都可以用，像透视，像数学。现代主义作为一个相对明确的意识形态，对我来说可能就是工作的一个拐杖，它对我有帮助，但是我并不觉得它是一个神圣的东西。对我来说，古典也很重要，古典与现代是连续的，两者之间并没有一刀切的界线。宁波坊宅的空间常常是对称的，总体也比较强调平衡，有古典的一面。简单地说现代不是一个目的，而是一个方法。

Nowadays, family structures are changing, modes of transportation are evolving, and dining habits are shifting – in essence, lifestyles are changing. A certain number of people have at least one meal delivered per day. If you eat at your desk, it may get dirty, and there might be smells lingering in the room. These aspects can be transformed into design-related issues. For example, can we design a dining table desk? Perhaps a table with an integrated ventilation system to address smells?

Can we consider that, since the Renaissance, the knowledge accumulated by humanity over the past 500 years, such as perspective and mathematics, is something we can utilize? Modernism, as a relatively defined ideology, might serve as a tool for my work; it is helpful, but I don’t see it as something noble. Classical elements are also important to me; classical and modern are continuous, and there is no clear-cut boundary between them. The spaces in Four Studio-Houses in Ningbo are often symmetrical, emphasizing balance overall, reflecting a classical influence. Simply put, for me, modernism is not an end in itself; it is a method.

▼胶合木家具系列，Plywood furniture

▼深圳南头城社区中心（2023），Nantou Neighborhood Center, 2023（点击这里查看更多）

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03.
建筑师的思维
Thinking of Architect

#建筑不是纯艺术，它是一个工程
Architecture is not pure art but an engineering endeavor

我今年67岁。我在60岁的时候，觉得我的建筑思维基本建立起来了。建筑师典型的工作习惯是一开始设计先组织功能，同时研究基地。我现在首先会想的是做一个什么样的结构体系，而不是像很多建筑师，到后面才开始去想结构体系，甚至连材料都是后进来，设计开始时想的概念都跟材料结构没关系。最先去考虑结构和材料还解决了一个问题，就是可以少反复。如果你构思了一个比较抽象的空间，后面材料进来的时候可能会带来比较大的改动，甚至是推翻。

建筑不是纯艺术，它是一个工程。这其中当然还有好多需要钻研的科技领域，比如能源的问题，特别是太阳能的利用；还有现在有可能用粘土砖做蓄热池，想想房子的结构、围合和蓄能都同时用砖一种材料来实现，我觉得会非常有意思。总之，如果没有相应的技术支持，也不太可能做出有质量甚至突破性的建筑。

I am 67 years old this year. At the age of 60, I felt that my architectural thinking was basically established. The typical working habit of an architect is to initially organize functions and study the site when starting a design. Now, my first consideration is what kind of structural system to create, rather than, like many architects, thinking about the structure only later in the process, and even introducing materials afterward. As a result, the concepts at the beginning of the design are unrelated to material structures. Considering structure and materials first solves a problem: it reduces the need for revisions. If you conceive a relatively abstract space, the intervention of materials after may lead to significant changes, even overturning the initial concept.

Architecture is more than pure art; it’s a form of engineering. Within it, there are, of course, many technological areas that need exploration, such as energy issues, especially the utilization of solar energy. There is also the possibility of using clay bricks for heat storage pools. Thinking about achieving structure, enclosure, and energy storage simultaneously using a single material like bricks seems very interesting to me. In conclusion, without corresponding technical support, it is unlikely to produce high-quality or groundbreaking architecture.

▼吉首大学综合教学楼及黄永玉美术馆（2006），Jishou University Building + Huang Yongyu Museum, Jishou,Hunan，2016

▼湖南吉首美术馆（2019），Jishou Art Museum, Hunan, 2019（点击这里查看更多）

▼重庆故宫学院（2020），Forbidden City College, Chongqing, 2020（点击这里查看更多）

建筑说得再高技其实也都是低技，它不是卫星，宇宙飞船。

No matter how sophisticated architecture may seem, it fundamentally relies on low technology. 

简单地说，未来房子当然可能盖得更好，因为现在混凝土走向零排碳也是可能的了，现在是有不同的策略，有不同的一些方法，当然哪个方法会普及得更快，现在也没有人知道。几年之后如果混凝土生产实现了普遍的零排放，对于建筑业来说，创造新的结构体系的压力就会变得不那么大，而是又回到混凝土，看看混凝土怎么还能做得不同。

钢结构对我来说反而不太有趣，拱结构我觉得肯定还会继续做。我们最近在上海有个项目，和垂直玻璃宅配套的水平玻璃宅，可以说在钢结构上有一个小小的突破。我们把结构柱做到跟窗框一样大小，所以玻璃和结构可以保持在同一个界面上，也可以说窗框即柱子。这个事情我想了好多年，就是从视觉上消灭玻璃宅的结构。这都是我自己矫情的事。建筑说得再高技其实也都是低技，它不是卫星，宇宙飞船。在以前，结构和建筑结合得太差了，比如我们看到日本人当时做的5、6公分直径的钢柱会觉得特别神奇，那是因为咱们的规范特别保守，而且他们用实心的钢柱，中国从来不用。当然现在做法已经比原来多很多了。

In essence, future houses can undoubtedly be constructed with enhanced efficiency. The prospect of achieving zero carbon emissions in concrete is now possible, various strategies and methods are available. However, it remains uncertain which approach will gain widespread adoption more rapidly. Personally, I find steel structures less intriguing, and I foresee an increased use of arch structures. Our recent project in Shanghai, the Horizontal glass house adjunct with vertical glass house, represents a modest breakthrough in steel structures, where we designed the structural columns to match the size of the window frames, allowing the glass and structural elements to coexist seamlessly. In these cases, the window frame serves as pillar. No matter how high-tech architecture may seem, it fundamentally relies on low technology. Unlike satellites or spacecraft, it involves the use of a limited set of materials, maintaining its essential nature.

▼非常建筑于2004～2015年期间完成的部分商业项目，Some commercial projects completed between 2004 and 2015 by Atelier FCZJ

▼潍坊鸡蛋探索馆（2023），Egg Exploratorium, 2023（点击这里查看更多）

#由学校谈城市
From Campus to city

巴黎学舍和中国美术学院良渚校区，这两个建筑跟城市的关系都不是特别紧密。巴黎的中国学舍是在大学城里面，大学城里的建筑都比较分散、开放，但是中国学舍的位置比较边缘，紧贴着巴黎的环路，跟城市的关系也被环路切断了。我觉得大学城的规划有它的问题，房子彼此之间的关系不大，可能过于强调独栋，当然因为它们有代表国家这么一个特殊的意义。良渚的情况更不城市，国美实际在一个岛上，有一圈水道围绕着。当时我们就想，能不能把外面的城市引进来。可是后来在管理上觉得还是比较难。

巴黎众多的大学和研究所都在所谓的左岸，周边没有学生宿舍以及其它生活服务设施，这也导致了留学生、居民和游客争租公寓的问题。我觉得如果要是现在重新规划，是不是可以有一种中间状态？既不是像原先的巴黎大学那样完全没有校园，但也不是完全分开的校园，它可能是一种半校园，既有城市生活又有校园生活，我觉得如果能在其他一些城市琢磨和实现这个想法会特别有意思。

Maison de la Chine, CIUP, Paris and China Academy of Art Liangzhu Campus — these project seem have no particular relationships with the city. The Maison de la Chine in Paris is situated within a university city where the architecture is generally open. However, the campus is right next to Paris’s ring road, making it somehow peripheral, with its connection to the city severed by the ring road. I think there are problems with the planning of university cities, emphasizing detached buildings between them, rather than connected ones, due to their unique representation of the nation. The situation in Liangzhu is even worse; the campus located essentially on an island surrounded by a river. Initially, we thought about introducing the surrounding city into the campus. However, later on, management-wise, it seemed quite challenging and didn’t align with some contemporary practices.

Many of Paris’s universities and research institutions are located on the so-called Left Bank, with a lack of student dormitories and other life service facilities nearby. This has led to challenges with international students, residents, and tourists competing for limited apartment rentals. I believe that if we reimagine the city planning, there could be a middle ground – not entirely like the original Paris University without a campus, but also not a fully separated campus. It could be a semi-campus, combining urban and campus life. I think exploring and implementing this idea in some other cities could be particularly interesting.

▼中国学舍·法国巴黎国际大学城（2023），Maison de la Chine, CIUP, Paris, France, 2023（点击这里查看更多）

▼中国美术学院良渚校区，杭州（2021）, China Academy of Art Liangzhu Campus, 2021（点击这里查看更多）

城市的空间不是说一定要大，要豪华。而是让不论高收入还是低收入人群都可以拥有生活品质。

Urban space doesn’t necessarily have to be large or luxurious. Instead, it should be designed to provide a quality of life accessible to both high and low-income populations.

另外一件值得琢磨的事情是现在的大宽马路，大家可能觉得理所当然，路就应该这么宽，甚至不够宽。但其实路宽跟人没关系，而是跟车有关系。过去的7年，也就是从2016年左右开始，中国的人口越来越少，相应地，车也会越来越少。现在堵车是问题，将来没车也是问题。到时候我们可能需要把马路缩窄，拓展成建筑用地。我觉得这是一个迟早会出现的问题。

我特别感兴趣城市，尤其是小尺度、高密度的城市。汉语中城市的城所指的是城墙、市所指的就是市场，它开始是交易的地方，随后慢慢有了休闲、购物、文化和社交等属性。以市场为核心的城市是需要人走在地上的。城的本质是一个步行的环境，引用一位美国城市学家孟弗德的名言：怎么去定义一个好的城市？就是最多的选择在最少的区域里发生。

我实在想不出来北京有没有这样高密度、城市生活极大丰富的地方，上海还行，浦西肯定有。纽约曼哈顿的上西区完全就是这样，大概步行15分钟差不多就从一头到另一头了。在那么一个半径里，超市有五六个，有强调生态的也有大众廉价的，眼镜店也有四五家，连修鞋、换手表电池的小店也有不少。有的小店铺就塞在两座楼之间，可能不到一米宽的窄缝里。所以城市的空间不是说一定要大，要豪华。而是让不论高收入还是低收入人群都可以拥有生活品质。

Another intriguing aspect is the current wide roads, which may seem taken for granted—people might think roads should be this wide. However, road width is unrelated to people but more connected to vehicles. In the past seven years, starting around 2016, Chinese population has been decreasing, and correspondingly, the number of cars will also decrease. Traffic congestion is currently a problem, but lack of cars will be another problem in the future. At that time, we might need to narrow the roads and expand the building space. I believe this is a problem that will inevitably arise sooner or later.

I’m genuinely interested in cities, especially small-scale, high-density cities. “City” this world in Chinese can be divided into “Cheng” and “Shi”，“Cheng”means rampart,“Shi”initially means market, place for trading, and gradually evolved to include leisure, shopping, cultural, and social attributes. A market-centric city relies on people walking on the street. The essence of a city is a pedestrian environment. Urban space doesn’t necessarily have to be large or luxurious. Instead, it should be designed to provide a quality of life accessible to both high and low-income populations.

▼嘉定微型街区（2020），Jiading Mini-Block, 2020（点击这里查看更多）

______
03.
态度
Attitude


#不规划，每天努力
Daily effort is better than planning the future

我们从来也没有过发展规划，因为没法规划。建筑实践就是这样，没活儿的时候特别焦虑，活儿太多了也特别焦虑。实际上我想的就是每天的事儿怎么能给“混”过去。你要我现在去想年底的事儿，这还有两个月，我都觉得挺长的，不知道还有多少工程上的难题要解决。还有出版发表。我们一共十几个人，所有事情全都是我们自己干，稿子要起来都是也是火急火燎。我现在还欠着《建筑学报》一篇文章，目前为止一个字还没写，大概10天以后必须拿出来，我还不知道怎么办。如果你要我反思过去的项目，其实也挺难的。我们自己看到的不只是成果。就过程而言，首先不能够简单地用施工质量来衡量，有时粗糙、错误都可能构成特殊质量。一个设计想法是否成立也不是很快就能认识到，因为它常常和使用有关。还有一个实际情况就是好多个项目总是同时在做。一个项目会出问题停顿，一个项目又推进得异常地快，这种事都是有的。像广东的春阳台，那是我们历史以来盖的最快的一个房子，没想到会盖那么快，而且质量还可以。这种情况下，我就觉得自己有时候又保守了。

▼春阳台 – 塱头艺文中心，广州（2023），Chun Yang Tai – Langtou Cultural Centre, 2023（点击这里查看更多）

▼非常建筑近期正在进行的项目，Ongoing projects by Atelier FCZJ

We have never had a formalized plan because it’s just not feasible. That’s the nature of architectural practice—feeling anxious when there’s not enough work and feeling over-anxious when there’s too much. Truthfully, my daily focus is on navigating through each day’s challenges. Reflecting on past projects can be quite challenging. What we see is not just the outcome; the process is equally important. It’s not straightforward to measure the success of a project solely based on construction quality, sometimes roughness or errors can contribute to a unique quality. The validity of a design idea is not quickly discernible either because it is often intertwined with its actual usage.

Furthermore, practical considerations come into play, such as the fact that many projects are often underway simultaneously. One project may encounter issues and come to a pause, while another project processes exceptionally fast. This kind of variability is common. Take Chun Yang Tai – Langtou Cultural Centre, for example – it turned out to be the fastest-built house in our history. I didn’t expect it to be constructed so quickly, and the quality turned out to be satisfactory. In such situations, I sometimes find myself being conservative unexpectedly.

▼张永和，Yung Ho Chang

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