所有人都在使用建筑空间，地球上绝大部分人都生活在城市中。设计创意与每个人都息息相关。听听各行各业大家的想法，通过他们看世界，也听听他们对城市，建筑，设计与创意的看法。交流让世界更大。

gooood为你奉上“每个人everyone”专辑。这是第十六期：每个人 × 公租房 × 马岩松

Most of people lives in cities, experiencing architecture spaces everyday. Design is closely related to everyone, and listening to people from other industries also enables us to expand our understanding about design, architecture, urban environment and the whole world.

everyone album NO.16 – everyone × public housing × MA Yansong

出品人：向玲 | Producer: Xiang Ling
编辑团队：武晨曦，陈诺嘉，盖世昕，熊玮，薛墨林（实习），姜艾钰（实习）| Editor: Wu Chenxi, Chen Nuojia, Gai Shixin, Xiong Wei, Xue Molin (intern) , Jiang Aiyu (intern)

▼4分半精选视频（建议选择蓝光1080p观看）, 4.5-mintue video
©图片素材摄影师：夏至、存在建筑、朱雨蒙、田方方、CreatAR Images、gooood团队

百子湾公租房（燕保·百湾家园）是MAD建筑事务所首个建成的社会保障性住房项目。项目于2019年建成后，屡次被媒体和网友称为“最美公租房”，目前入住率已经超过七成。

在本期每个人everyone专辑中，gooood采访了建筑师马岩松和几位生活在这里的居民，希望为理解这个项目提供一些不同角度的观点，同时也听一听建筑师对于住宅设计的思考。

Baiziwan public rental housing community is the first social housing project completed by MAD. Since its completion in 2019, it has been widely acclaimed as the “most beautiful public housing” by the media and netizens, also be beloved by its residents. By now the community’s occupancy rate has exceeded 70%.

In this episode of Everyone album, gooood has interviewed the architect Ma Yansong and several residents living in Baiziwan community, in order to provide some different perspectives on the project and in the meantime to further understand the architect’s thoughts on housing design.

项目概述

由马岩松带领的MAD建筑事务所发布首个社会保障性住房——百子湾公租房（燕保·百湾家园）。项目位于北京市东四环外广渠路，紧邻地铁7号线化工站，遥望CBD。项目占地9.39万平米，总建筑面积47.33万平方米，共有12栋住宅楼，总住户达4000户。

作为事务所的第一个社会住宅项目，MAD希望能够在具体实践中突破常规，用设计推动中国社会住宅创新，让空间和建筑服务于人，庞大的社区消融于城市和居民的生活，唤醒住宅的社会性，解决目前中国城市快速发展中关于居住的一系列具体问题。

打开社区围墙，引入城市道路。12栋住宅楼分成六个组团，一个大地块被拆分成六个小街区。首层临街空间作为生活服务配套，将引入便利店、咖啡店、餐厅、幼儿园、便民诊所、书店、养老机构等一系列丰富的功能，社区生活融入城市，城市尺度更加宜人。

首层功能还给城市后，MAD将二层留给社区居民内部使用，形成一系列立体的屋顶绿化，一条环形跑步道将六个街区再重新环抱成一个整体，变成一个巨大的公园，串联着健身房、羽毛球场、儿童游乐场、生态农场、社区服务中心等多种面向住户的社区功能。

MAD Architects, led by Ma Yansong, unveiled its first public housing project – Baiziwan public rental housing community. Located on Guangqu Road outside Beijing’s East Fourth Ring Road, close to the Huagong Station on Metro Line 7 and looking out over the CBD, the project covers an area of 93,900 sqm, with a total construction area of 473,300 sqm, and comprises 12 apartment buildings with a total of 4,000 households.

In its first social housing project, MAD aims to break the mould in concrete practice and use design to promote innovation in social housing in China, allowing space and architecture to serve people. A big-scale community dissolves itself into both the city and the lives of its residents, awakening the social nature of residences and solving a series of specific problems about living in a rapidly growing city in China today.

By opening up the enclosing walls and introducing urban roads in the community, 12 apartment buildings are divided into six clusters, thus a large plot of land is split into six smaller blocks. The ground level is mainly for public programmes that are integrated into the city, and will combine a series of facilities including convenience stores, cafes, restaurants, a kindergarten, a community clinic, bookstores and elderly institutions, etc. Community life is integrated into the city, and in the meantime the city becomes more humanized in its scale.

Returning the ground level to the city, the first level of the community is dedicated to the residents, creating a series of three-dimensional green areas. A circular running track re-unites the six blocks into a whole to create a huge park, interconnecting all communal programmes including but not limited to a gym, a badminton court, a children’s playground, an eco-farm and a community service centre.

▼百子湾公租房（燕保·百湾家园）项目鸟瞰，Aerial view ©存在建筑
点此查看项目详情，Click here for more detailed descriptions

小区居民怎么说？

· 您对这个小区的第一印象是？

孔女士：这个小区给我的印象就是非常美，楼是错落有致，像山形也像品字形，这是给我的印象。二层是一个平台，它有花有草有树，非常美，连廊之间通向各个楼门，可以说不用下到一层直接从楼里边就能到了这个平台，非常方便。
王女士：环境很好，也比较安静，也比较幽静，卫生条件都很好。
冯女士：印象不错，环境什么都挺好的。

· 您认为这里与之前的居住地相比，差别最大的是什么方面？

孔女士：这跟我原来住那地儿天壤之别，原来我们住的小区比较老旧。这儿人跟车都分开了，没有什么可比性，就是管理特别好，比较干净。
王女士：我觉得按那句话说，这个是天堂那个是地狱。小区的环境、卫生，还有管理，还有设备，这些东西都挺好的。
冯女士：安静。确实环境也好。

· 您对公租房的最初期待是什么样的？实际入住这个小区之后感觉如何？

孔女士：我对公租房最初的期待就是有地儿住就行，到了这儿以后说句心里话，虽然高等小区我没去过，但是我心目中这就是一个非常顶级的高等小区的管理和居住环境。
王女士的丈夫：反正对我来说我觉得比我期待要好。首先来讲居住环境那是甭说了，比以前要好很多，然后他跟你一些老旧破那种小区社区也强太多了。第二个你要说公租项目弄成这么好，反正我是没想到。出门就是地铁，然后公交，然后购物，吃饭买菜什么的也特方便，就医也非常方便。
冯女士：就是房租太高了，有什么说什么。

· 您对现在的居住环境是否满意？请说说您最满意的地方。

孔女士：都挺满意的，他的环境，他的居住、管理，还有我们这儿的人文关怀，那都是无与伦比的。
王女士：最满意的就是居住环境。我觉得平台特舒服，又干净又宽敞，还比较安全也没什么车。有点时间的时候下去遛个弯，心里特别愉悦。
冯女士：管家服务都挺到位的。

▼左：小区户外空间；右：傍晚在社区遛狗的居民
Left: Outdoor space © CreatAR Images ; Right: Residents in the community ©朱雨蒙

· 您对现在的小区有什么不满意的地方？您认为应当如何改进？

孔女士：说心里话，我觉得没有什么可需要改进的，如果说稍稍有一点点瑕疵的是今年夏天雨水比较大的时候，路面稍稍有一点点积水，但是他们清扫的也比较及时。
王女士：我就实话实说，对于我们来讲像这种公租本身房屋居住面积就小一点，要是公摊给我们稍微再让一点，那就最好了。
冯女士：还是老年活动，差点。

· 您平时是不是就愿意在小区里面多转一转？

孔女士：我基本上如果不是出去购物，都是在小区里活动，二楼平台跳绳、遛弯，晚上出来散步。有花、有草、有树、道路也是有座椅累了可以休息。
王女士：我就喜欢在平台，有时间我肯定在平台里遛弯，小区的周边走走，就喜欢在这小区里头，因为真的挺舒服又干净。我们这个等于算是空中花园。
冯女士：转呐，天天转。早上也下来了，晚上也下来，天天转。

· 您和小区里的其他居民熟识吗？小区的公共空间是否给你带来了更多与其他人相遇相识的机会？你是否希望更多地参与集体活动？为什么？

孔女士：社区有活动群，每个月组织我们志愿者活动，所以就认识了很多新的朋友。
王女士：我们平常也挺忙的，我们的时间可能跟他们不是特别能碰一块，大家遛个弯儿说个话打个招呼倒蛮热情的。
冯女士：是，认识的朋友也多了，反正在一块都挺高兴乐呵，心情特舒畅，你像我没事就出去溜溜玩去。

· 您心目中的理想社区是什么样的？

孔女士：就是这样的社区，可以说梦寐以求就是这样的社区，甚至比我梦想的要好，过去我对公租房能住就行，但是没想到住进来以后环境这么美，这么好。
王女士：目前来说，反正我没看到第二个小区，像咱们这个小区这么好的，反正我是没见到。

· 在您看来，最终的生活目标是否还是买房？

孔女士：长远的规划不打算再购房了，打算是能够在长期居住是最好的。
王女士：当然属于我自己的房子更好了，可我没那能力，国家有这么一个好政策，我觉得我住在这我很开心，我也很幸福，我这一辈子我也挺知足。

gooood

对话马岩松

*英文版本见文末，For English please scroll down

01/您为什么会选择设计百子湾项目？您认为它为目前中国社会住房的设计带来了哪些新的东西？有哪些亮点？

马岩松：北京保障房中心最初邀请我们去做一些新型的保障房项目。过去的保障房我们也做过调研，感觉情况都不太好。再加上很多国外的好的建筑师其实都做住宅，而住宅在中国就建设量来说质量又比较差，所以我们也想做一些尝试，看能不能有一些变化。

有人跟我说不设计住宅不是好建筑师，我觉得确实这个话听起来也正常。仔细想一下，在中国千城一面，所有的房子都长一样，我觉得这确实是一个问题。最大的挑战就摆在眼前，我就也想挑战一下自己。

我们最主要的理念就是“开放的社区”，所以我们设计了一个没有围墙的社区，然后把城市街道引到社区里面。在一层是与城市融合的公共功能为主，二层包括绿化和活动场所。我们通过一个连桥把二层的空间整个串通起来，就形成了一个立体的社区。住宅楼也是高矮错落的，形成一种比较丰富的、跟人体尺度比较吻合的空间感受，它不同于那种兵营式的，大板楼或者大塔楼的布局。

所以挑战在于它是一个高密度社区，它和其他社区的前提是一样的，但是我们想把人性的空间、社区感跟城市的融合作为一个突破点。我们之前调研的一些住宅，尤其是社会住宅，都是位置比较偏远，或者是用围墙跟城市完全隔开，不融于这个城市。对城市来说，每一个围起来的地方就像是一个黑洞，你永远没有必要去这个地方，也不知道里面发生了什么，尤其是北京有很多这种封闭起来的小区，最后整个城市就好像少了一半。我觉得无论是从空间利用，还是从不同的人的融合来说，都应该去探索一下开放社区的理念。

02/百子湾项目在绿化率的计算上对规定做出了一些突破，它为项目带来了哪些优势？如何在一个高密度的社会住宅中实现开放和与自然亲近的空间？

马岩松：由于我们把城市街道和功能引到了一层，所以无车的景观区是在二层，也就是漂浮的城市花园。一般绿化率的要求是30%，但是经过人车分流了以后，二层的绿化率达到了47%，多于一个传统住区的公共空间的面积。但是在以往的那种计算中，有些情况下二层面积是不算的，或者他要折一个系数才能算，所以实际上对居民来说是得到了更多的空间，而且兼顾了地面层的使用功能。

地面层跟城市的融合，除了在心理上营造“社区跟城市是一体的”感觉，在使用上也有很多好处，就是可以多出许多弹性的空间和灰空间，提供各种功能的使用，比如说服务社区的超市，将来可能还有餐厅、咖啡厅、书店；还可以有一些非盈利的，比如文化空间、展示空间和文化团体。我们还设计了一个室外的剧场，让文化团体可以低成本地入驻到社区里边，为居民提供融合和共享的机会。

▼漂浮花园示意图，Vertical landscape diagram ©MAD

▼社区绿化率达到47%，让居民的生活更加贴近自然
The community has a greening rate of 47%, bringing residents closer to nature © 存在建筑

03/在这个项目中，还有哪些地方体现了设计与政策规定之间的博弈？在这个过程中您能控制的程度是大概有多少？

马岩松：其实从项目模型就可以看出来，我们非常看重在必须要提供的空间之外，我们还能提供什么？因为对每一个人来说，他关心的当然是他自己的房子，和房子里面的空间。但是当这么多人生活在一起的时候，就有了社区，然后有了跟城市的关系。这个模型里“线框”的部分就是传统的、必须要提供的硬性空间。除了刚才我说的那些功能，我们后来又在底层做了一些社区共享的空间。这些东西，你不用的时候可能不觉得重要，但是当你用的时候你就知道，它不但对这个社区重要，对周边的社区也重要。所以让城市打开是非常有必要的。如果社区内部可以提供一个层次，就像现在的二层平台，可以锻炼，可以遛狗，有让小孩玩的地方，当人进行这些活动的时候，他会不自觉地跟他的邻居、和他周边的小区产生联系。这种社区的融合和社会的共享，就是我们的一个极致的梦想。

▼项目模型：“线框”的部分代表传统的硬性空间
Project model: the “wireframes” represent the rigid spaces ©gooood

一层其实有不少的灰空间，这在地产里很难做到，因为它计算比较苛刻，什么都得算面积，但是这种空间如果只计较面积就没人去做了。像一层有顶棚的这些可以停电动车的空间，都是我们有意做的。要是地面不提供这些面积，那就得停地库，人还得推着电动车从坡道下去，然后再走上来，这样就很不人性了。所以我们做的这种博弈，最终目的还是希望提供一个具有公共功能的空间。

▼从住宅过道拍摄小区的露天剧场
View to the amphitheater from the apartment corridor ©gooood

04/ “山水城市”的理念在商业建筑和住宅建筑上会有怎样不同的体现？

马岩松：我们没有刻意地去做一个所谓的山水建筑。这个建筑确实是有一个退台式的天际线，但这完全是从空间的角度考虑。我们的一个前提是希望每一户都有阳光。考虑到是小户型，就必须做成薄的板，我们选择了三叉型的平面，这样就能尽量多放一些房子。但同时我们又不想让楼特别高，想让小区空间能舒适一点，所以就又设计了一些矮的房子，但这也就和大的容积率形成了一个矛盾。为了让这些高矮不一的体量形成顺畅的过渡，就产生了这么一些退台。

▼三岔式的平面，The Y-shaped layout ©夏至

▼提取建筑形态设计的社区导视系统，Signage system design ©MAD; gooood

05/百子湾项目采用的是装配式的建造，这对项目带来了哪些有利和不利的影响？装配式住宅是未来住宅项目的趋势所在吗？

马岩松：这是一个前提。北京保障房中心要求能达到一个比较高的装配率，也是这个项目它本身的性质。它应该算是一个标杆性的或者实验性的项目，所以我们才能在其他方面（像绿化率、灰空间，面积的计算）有一个博弈。产业化率高，我觉得是有很多好处的，比如环保性，还有速度、整洁度和施工的品质都会提高。在一层，我们想做出那种很灵动的、起伏的景观效果，这个没办法使用预制单元，所以只有在一层我们用了现浇结构，但在这之上的部分几乎是100%的标准化预制建造。

▼建筑立面：除了一层的现浇结构，其他部分几乎是100%的标准化预制建造，Building facade: except for the ground level, the entire project was 100% standardized prefabricated construction©gooood

06/当下一些国际上的住区设计注重不同背景、不同收入水平居民的融合，您如何看待这样的理念？在中国的环境下，住宅设计可以从哪些层面加强这种融合？

马岩松：社区融合是我们的一个目标，因为中国城市，尤其是住宅，都是因为人群的不同被区分。社会住宅相对于商品房来说当然还是提供给一个特定人群，但随之而来的问题是大家怎么居住在一起，他们跟城市是什么关系？我觉得打破这种标签式的东西、这种身份和阶层的东西是最重要的。大家所共有的一些需求，比如说对绿色、对美、对社区的归属感，还有一些心理上的需求，这些都是能跨越阶层的。只有超越这种阶层的社会住房和空间，才能让人真正感觉到归属，感觉到生活。

07/我们采访了社区居民，他们大部分都反映了公摊面积大的问题。但当我们问，如果只能选择一方，是要屋里的空间大一点，还是外面的环境更好一些？他们其实都倾向于选择后者。您怎么看待居民反映的问题？

马岩松：作为建筑师能做的是提供这些空间。传统住区要求的配套面积其实很小，几个超市可能就完了。但是我们提供这么多空间的目的就是以非常低的成本先把它建出来，它就可以用非常低的租金去运营。这样的话很多原本进不来的租户，比如工作室，文化空间，就有可能进来了。所以我觉得怎么运营它可能需要一个智慧和过程。

我知道大家都是住小房子，我能做的就是怎么把小房子设计得舒服，我会争取更多的公共空间，然后让室外的或者共享的公空间变成生活中比较重要的一部分。

▼让每一户都享受到阳光
The design gave priority to providing every family sufficient sunlight © CreatAR Images

08/我们发现有些住户好像不太会布置家具，室内空间似乎没有得到充分的利用。在户型的布局和布置方面，您做了哪些考量？

马岩松：我们为每一个户型都设计了内部的储物空间，比如床、椅子、桌子。我们在窗户底下设计了飘窗，下面可以储物，高的地方也可以储物。对于小户型来说，怎么去安排家具和这些储物空间，确实会特别影响它实际的使用效率。有些东西需要时间，拿我们在巴黎的项目（UNIC）来说，它已经做到商品房跟社会保障房融合在一起了，法国的保障房从战后的那种大板楼发展到今天，也是经过了很长时间的努力，这个过程中有政府层面的努力，有用户自发的努力，也有建筑师一代一代地去推动这些规则的变化，这些都需要时间。现在中国有这么大量的住宅，却这么缺少所谓的社区，缺少人的感觉和设计的感觉，我觉得迫切需要建筑师用行动去做一些改变。可能每一次改变你都要接受一些失败，甚至会被批评，但就是在（每个建筑师）自然而然地去承担的前提下才能真正推动这件事。

▼采光楼道和邮箱区域
The corridor and lobby with natural light © gooood

09/对于百子湾项目，您有哪些满意或者不满意的地方？

马岩松：我觉得这个项目相对于现实而言，它的实验性已经非常强了，并且挑战了很多传统住区。我现在已经没有满意不满意的问题，我就是很好奇它在现实中的一个表现，或者说它的一个互动性。其实百子湾社区从设计上讲也不是我的一个极端理想，它已经考虑到一些现实，我想看到的是它反过来能对现实产生什么样的影响。可能这个影响的过程会是互动的，可能有矛盾，有抗拒，也有它的调整，但是这种互动正是社区形成的一个必经之路。如果没有居民的参与，没有理想主义的理念，也就形成不了社区。“如何去运营”与居民反馈之间的张力至少得持续个几年，这种讨论的过程是我所期待的。

10/如果未来再做住宅项目，您希望做出哪些新的尝试？

马岩松：太多了。我是觉得每个社区都应该不一样。“同质化”是中国住宅的最大问题，所有的小区都是一样的，规划房型的模式都是一样的，一个城市和另一个城市差不多也是一样的，所有中国人的生活也都差不多一样。在这个前提下，你只要做不一样，我觉得就是正面的，不用太苛求所谓的成功还是不成功，因为只要是有一点变化，就已经是在挑战现实了，就已经是一种对多样性的努力。所以如果我有机会再做住宅，我肯定会做一个（和百子湾公租房）完全不一样的。

▼建筑与城市，The building in the city ©朱雨蒙

Interview with Ma Yansong

1. What was the motivation for you to accept the commission to design Baiziwan project? What new things do you think it brings to China’s public housing today? What are the highlights of this project?

Ma Yansong: Initially we were invited by Beijing Public Housing Center to a participate in the development of new types of public housing. We had done research on the past housing projects and found the status quo not so desirable. On the other hand, as many international architects had engaged with residential projects, and the quality of housing in China is relatively poor when compared to its quantity, we thought it was an opportunity to giving it a try, seeing if we could bring some changes.

I was once told that a good architect must have residential projects, which I thought was in some way reasonable. Indeed, what we see in China today is that most cities, as well as their houses, all look the same, which I think is quite an issue. Now that the biggest problem has come into sight, I want to challenge myself too.

The main concept of the project was to create an “open community”, so we eliminated all the fences, and then brought city roads in. The ground level is mainly for public programmes that are integrated into the city; while the first level includes greenery and activity spaces. All spaces on the first level are interconnected through a bridge to finally achieve a three-dimensional community. The apartments are also staggered in height, creating a rich, human-scaled spatial experience, which is different from the traditional approach to those barrack-like, slab-type buildings or towers.

The challenge was to create a high-density community, which had the same premise as any other project of its type, but what we wanted to do was to integrate human-scaled space and the sense of community into the city, and to make it a distinctive feature of the whole project. Some of the residential projects we investigated before, especially public housing, were usually in remote locations or completely walled off from its urban surroundings. In a city, every enclosed area is like a black hole where nobody finds it necessary to go to or see what is happening inside. Beijing has many housing estates like that, and all these enclosed areas will finally make a part of the city “swallowed”. In this case, I think there is a need to explore the idea of “open community”, whether it is from the use of space or the integration of different inhabitants.

2. Some breakthroughs was made to the regulations in terms of the calculation of greenery ratio. How did it benefit the project? In such a high-density housing project, what measures have been taken to achieve spaces that are open yet intimate to nature?

Ma Yansong: As we led the city roads and functions to the ground floor, the first floor has become a car-free landscape zone, which is also known as the floating garden. Generally, the greening rate of a residential district is no less than 30%, but by separating the flow of pedestrians and vehicles, the greening rate on the first floor is raised to 47%, which is more than the area of all public spaces in a traditional community. However, in some cases the first floor area will not be counted, or it has to be counted with a coefficient, which means the residents in Baiziwan community are given extra spaces without sacrificing the functions on the ground floor.

In addition to creating a psychological feeling that the community and the city are one, the integration of the ground level with the city will also bring advantages in terms of use, i.e. there will be more flexible grey spaces with various functions，including a neighborhood supermarket, and in the future there may be restaurants, cafes and bookshops, as well as some non-profits like cultural spaces or exhibition spaces. We also designed an amphitheater that allows cultural groups to enter the community at low cost, and also provides residents with opportunities for gathering and sharing.

3. Was there any other aspect where the design challenges the policy regulations? To what extend were you able to control the whole process?

Ma Yansong: As you can see from the project model, we attach great importance to what we can offer in addition to the space we have to provide. For each individual, what he cares about is of course his own apartment and the space inside it, but when so many people live together, there is a community, and then there is a relationship with the city. The “wireframes” showed in this model are what we call “rigid spaces” that must be provided. In addition to the functions I have just mentioned, we have also created some shared community spaces on the ground level, which may not be found very important until they are literally used by the residents, or even by people from the surrounding communities. So it is very necessary to get the city open. If every community is conceived to have an extra level as what we did on the first floor, where people can exercise or walk their dogs, where there are places for children to play, when all these activities happen, the users will unconsciously place themselves in a relationship with their neighbours and surrounding blocks. This kind of integration of community, as well as the sharing by the society, is our ultimate vision in the design.

A large amount of grey spaces were arranged on the ground level, which was a challenge for housing estate planning because there were strict restrictions in terms of area calculations. However, if what you care about is only the area, then nobody would attempt to work it out. Some of those gray spaces for parking the electric scooters are intentionally programmed, or else the residents have to go downstairs and then walk back to the ground level, which would be quite inconvenient. So all these efforts we made was to achieve a space that can be well-used by the public.

4. How was your concept of “Shanshui City” reflected in the project？Will it be differently embodied in commercial buildings compared to that in residential buildings?

Ma Yansong: We didn’t intend to do a so-called “Shanshui” architecture. The buildings do form a receded skyline, but this is completely considered from a spatial point of view. The design gave priority to providing every family sufficient sunlight. Given that they were all small-sized units, the volumes had to be minimized into thin “slabs”, and the Y-shaped building plan made it possible to maximize the amount of households. At the same we tried to avoid making the buildings overwhelming in scale, and in order to create a more comfortable spatial experience, we designed additional volumes that are smaller in height. This was in conflict with the ideal floor area ratio, thus we created such setbacks to form a smooth transition between these different volumes.

5. What are the pros and cons of using the prefabricated construction for Baiziwan project? Do you think prefabricated buildings will become a mainstream of residential development in the future？

Ma Yansong: This was a prerequisite. Beijing Public Housing Center required the project to have a relatively high assembly rate, which was also the kind of prototype that the project supposed to be. It was conceived as an exemplary or experimental project, so that we were allowed to break the established rules in many other aspects, such as the measurement of greening rate, grey space and usable area. High industrialization rate can benefit to enhancing the environmental friendliness and ensuring a fast, clean and high-quality construction. On the ground level, we wanted to create a dynamic and undulating landscape, which was not able to realize by using prefabricated units, so we used a cast-in-situ structure, above which the entire project was 100% standardized prefabricated construction.

6. How do you see the concept of integration of residents from different backgrounds and income levels in the design of some international settlements today? In what ways can residential design in China enhance such kind of integration?

Ma Yansong: Community integration is one of our goals of practice, as Chinese cities, especially Chinese residential developments, are usually differentiated by their users. Public housing, compared with commercial residence, is provided to a specific group of people, but the question that follows is how do people live together and what is their relationship to the city? I think it is the most important thing to avoid such acts of labelling and class-division. There are needs that we all share, such as the need for greenery and beauty, for the sense of belonging to a community, as well as for psychological satisfaction, which are able to transcend class, and these are prerequisites for today’s public housing to truly give people belongingness and sense of living.

7. We have interviewed some residents from the community and most of them mentioned about the problem of large shared areas. But when they were asked to choose either a lager living area or a better environment outside, they all tended to choose the latter. How do you think about it?

Ma Yansong: As an architect, what I can do is to provide spaces that are flexible and manageable. The ancillary facility required by traditional communities can be very limited, maybe it is just a couple of supermarkets. The reason why we provided so much service spaces is to first build it out at a low cost, and therefore it can be operated at a low rent. In this way, the tenants who would not otherwise come in, such as studios and cultural spaces, are able to afford the cost of entering. So I think it is a gradual process of becoming wise in its operation and management.

It is already the case that the residents are living in small-sized apartments, and what I’m able to do is to make their homes more comfortable, and then let the outdoor and shared spaces become a more important part of their life.

8. We found that some residents do not seem to be good at arranging furniture of their houses, which in some way leads to a waste of space. What considerations have you made in terms of the layout and arrangement of different house typologies?

Ma Yansong: We designed built-in storage for each house type, including those in beds, benches and tables. There are also some other spaces for storage like the bay window or high shelves. For a small house, the layout of furniture and storages can really affect how efficiently it can be used, and the residents still need time to be adept at that. Take the project we have done in Paris (UNIC) as an example, which has achieved the combination of commercial housing and social housing, it took a quite long time for France to develop its social hosing from post-war slab buildings to what it is like today. It is achieved by government efforts, the residents’ spontaneous adaption as well as architects’ fighting for changing the rules, from generation to generation. There is such a large amount of housing in China today, but only a few of them can be called as communities due to a lack of consideration of people and of design itself. I think there is now an urgent need for architects to take action to make some changes. You may have to accept failures
and I think there is an urgent need for architects to take action to make some changes. You may have to face with failures and the voice of opposition, but it is only when every architect naturally takes it on can the changes really happen.

9. What are your satisfaction or dissatisfaction with Baiziwan project?

Ma Yansong: I think it is already a very experimental project in relation to its current conditions, and it has challenged many existing cases. For now I would not say I’m satisfied or unsatisfied with it, I’m just curious about its actual performance, or how interactive it will be. Honestly, Baiziwan is not one of my extreme ideals in terms of design, since it has more or less compromised on some restrictions. What I want to see is what kind of impact it can have on reality in turn. It might be an interactive process, with contradictions, resistance or any other adjustments, but it is also the only way for the formation of a community. No community can be formed without the participation of inhabitants and idealistic attitudes. The tension that exists between “how to operate” and the feedback from the residents will last for at least a few years, but it is the kind of discussion I’m always expect to witness.

10. If you were to do another residential project in the future, what new ventures would you like to make?

Ma Yansong: There are too many. Every community should be different. “Homogenization” has become a big problem of residential buildings in China. All communities look the same. The planning patterns and the appearances of different cities are the same. Even the lives of all Chinese people are almost the same. Under this premise, whenever you do something different, I think it is positive. There is no need to be critical of the so-called success, because a small change can already challenge the reality, and is already an effort to diversity. So if I had the opportunity to build another residential project again, I would definitely do one that is completely different (from Baiziwan community).

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