Ramble – China’s Architectural Education: Zhuang Weimin, Dean of the Architecture School of Tsinghua University

信步辑，闲庭信步看世界。gooood的信步辑拥有许多子分类。这里是“中国建筑教育”子分类。我们将对话中国教育界的专业人士，倾听他们对于当今中国建筑教育的看法与建议，以期为读者提供更加学术化的视野。第一期对话清华大学建筑学院院长、清华大学建筑设计研究院院长兼总建筑师庄惟敏。更多关于：Architectual Design and Research Institute of Tsinghua University on gooood。

Rumble, to take a glance at the world by wandering. Ramble is an album including many sub-albums, and this sub-album is about China’s architectural education. Here is the first episode where we have a conversation with Zhuang Weimin, the dean of the School of Architecture of Tsinghua University and the president of Architectural Design and Research Institute of Tsinghua University. More: Architectual Design and Research Institute of Tsinghua University on gooood。

Other articles in Ramble – China’s Architectural Education
Series 2: Li Zhenyu, Dean of CAUP, Tongji University
Series 3: Kong Yuhang, Dean of the Architecture School of Tianjin University
Series 4: Zhang Tong, Dean of the School of Architecture of Southeast University

▼视频 Video （全文深度采访见下方文字。视频为5分钟精华版，建议选择蓝光1080p观看。）

Interview
gooood x Zhuang Weimin 庄惟敏

中国顶尖建筑学院清华大学建筑学院的发展概况与特色是什么？
What is the characteristic and the development situation of the Architecture school of Tsinghua University?

清华大学建筑学院在世界上的排名连续三年位居前列，两年是第八（2015/2016），一年是第十一（2017），理论上讲确实可以算得上是世界一流。但这不是我一个人执掌的这段时间就能做出来的成绩，它实际上是前历届院长、系主任们，包括全体教职员工和学生共同努力的结果。清华建筑的成功原因应该可以概括为以下几个方面。第一，它依托于中国这样的大环境，这是最重要的一点。建筑院校如果离开自己的文化文脉土壤就没有根了。清华建筑之所以可以获得大家的公认和认可其实和文脉环境是分不开的。第二个原因也是源于中国的大背景。中国这条建筑文化线索在世界建筑学领域，或者说世界建筑学发展的过程中，具有举足轻重作用。第三，最近十几年中，我们的毕业生走到了世界的各个地方，为我们母校的成果推广和声誉弘扬起到了非常大的作用。最后一点源于最近几年推行的改革措施，如开放式教学，聘请著名的国内外建筑师为我们做设计课的辅导。为此，清华大学专门推出了一个特殊的教师认证——“建筑学导师”，由学校校长颁发聘书，开放教学覆盖建筑系三年级整个年级。加上按照学校大战略推行的教师人事制度改革、教育教学改革和国际化办学等一系列改革措施，才构成了今天这样一个成果。

The School of Architecture of Tsinghua University has been ranking among the highest in the world for three consecutive years., in 2015 and 2016 ranking the eighth, and in 2017rankingthe eleventh. Theoretically speaking, we are in the world class. But this achievement is not owed to me, it is a result of the joint efforts of all the former presidents, department chairmen, faculty, staff and students. We could conclude the success of Architecture Department, Tsinghua University in the following aspects: firstly, also the most important, the Architecture school of Tsinghua University relies on the Chinese environment. China and Chinese culture are our roots, and this is the main reason that people and the world could recognize us. Secondly, the clue of Chinese architectural culture plays an important role in the development of the world’s architecture. And this is where we are based on. Thirdly, in the last decade or so, our graduates have gone to various parts of the world and played a very important role in promoting the achievements and reputation of our university. Finally, the reform measures introduced in recent years. Such as the implementation of open teaching. We have invited the world known architects to assist our design classes. Thus, the Tsinghua University has put forward a special teacher certification– “architecture advisor”, which is certificated by the headmaster. This open teaching covers the entire third academic year of Architecture Department. And with the strategies like the reform of personnel system, education and teaching, international education branding, we have reached such a height today.

▼清华大学建筑馆，School of Architecture, Tsinghua University ©清华大学建筑学院信息中心

▼清华大学建筑学院新馆B1层79吧咖啡厅，79-Bar Cafe, B1, the new building of School of Architecture,Tsinghua University ©程正雨

你认为清华与中国国内高校对建筑师职业教育跟欧美高校有哪些明显差异，您认为培养优秀当代建筑人关键之处是什么？
What are the obvious differences, in your point of view, between the Chinese and the western universities in vocational education of architects? And what do you think is the key to cultivating good contemporary architects?

随着全球化趋势越来越明显，国内外在教育体系、教育方式甚至课程设置等方面都已经没有明显的区别了。我们和西方之间的差异并不是问题的关键，应该说我们现在除了和西方同质化的地方外还有哪些自身的特点才是问题的关键。业界里大家公认有两大阵营，一个是欧洲的以强调建筑本原的建构逻辑为出发点的教学体系，如代尔夫特和ETH。还有一个是美国的体系。清华在这两方面都有很多交流，比如和哈佛、MIT在研究生培养层面，和康乃尔大学、代尔夫特、ETH等在本科生、研究生培养层面的交流等。这些交流融合成为现在的教学体系，经过多年的积累和摸索形成了清华特有的“4+2”的专业培养模式，完成“4+2”六年的本硕贯通学习毕业后获得建筑学学士和建筑学硕士学位。其中，五年建筑学本科学位是符合堪培拉协议约定的，只有完成五年的专业教育才能取得坎德拉协议之间的互认，为未来成为职业建筑师打下基础。我们希望做出自己的特色，我们没有完全照搬欧洲的“3+2”概念和美国的五年教学，而是在这个基础上根据我们自己的特点来把它实现。在“4+2”的六年过程中学生可以选择多种出口，他们可以选择四年毕业拿工学学位，也可以选择五年毕业拿建筑学学士学位，还可以六年毕业拿建筑学硕士学位，这是符合现在中国国情和培养特色的。

我认为大师不是在学校里培养出来的，大师的养成是要有天赋，有悟性的。我们对人才培养的定位非常清晰精准，即在建筑学层面我们要培养合格的建筑师。在成为合格的建筑师这个基础之上，学生才能够通过自己的悟性和才智素养，变成大师或者专业帅才。我们能够引导学生的只有教会他们基本的原理，告诉他们如何审美，告诉他们一种境界，一种前人大师传承下来精神状态和理念。至于能不能修行成大师就要完全靠他们自己，这也是西方教育界里普遍认同的模式。我们没有大师班，而且不为大学生竞赛专门做课程设置。我们认为学生竞赛对学生而言是自我锻炼的机会，应该和他们的自我成长和自我修炼结合起来。老师可以辅导，但是绝对不能当成课程设计来做。

As globalization becomes more and more obvious, there are no apparent differences between our education system, patterns or the course settings and the foreign countries’. The crucial point, instead of the differences between the east and the west, is what characteristics do we have besides the homogeneity. There are two recognized camps of architecture teaching in the world. One is TU-Delft and ETH who laid stress of education system on the basic principle of architecture. The other is the education system in the USA. Tsinghua is in communication with both, such as the postgraduate fostering programme with Harvard and MIT, and the undergraduate and postgraduate educational communication with Cornell, TU-Delft and ETH. Thus, we formed our own education system of Tsinghua University, which is 4+2 pattern. After 6 years, students will achieve both bachelor and master degree in architecture. Besides, the five years’ bachelor confirms the Canberra Accord on Architectural Education, and one could be qualified only when he finishes the 5 years’ study, to lay the foundation for becoming professional architects in the future. We are not totally coping the 3+2 study principle in Europe nor the 5-year’s architecture study in the USA, instead, we have our own characteristics. In the 4+2 programme, students could choose to finish with four years’ Bachelor of Engineering, or with five years’ Bachelor of Architecture, or six years’ Master degree of Architecture. This is in line with China’s national conditions and cultivation characteristics.

I don’t think the masters are cultivated in universities To become a master, one should have talent and perceptions. Our position on talent cultivation is very clear and precise, that is, we should cultivate qualified architects at the architectural level. Only when students become qualified architects, they might have abilities and perceptions to become masters. What we can guide our students is to teach them the basic principle, to tell them how to gain architectural aesthetics, to tell them a kind of realm, a state of mind and philosophy inherited from previous masters. . As to whether a student could become a master or not, it depends on their own. And this is the general understanding in western education. We do not have master classes, nor set courses for competitions. Competitions are self-training opportunities in which students should combine with their own study and experiences. Professors could help with the competitions but should not involve in the design courses.

▼庄惟敏教授和学生讨论方案，discussing with students

您认为全球化背景下清华大学建筑学院面临着什么挑战？
What is the challenge of the Architecture School of Tsinghua University in the context of globalization?

全球化让世界变得越来越像，在这样的大趋势下，如何在一个非常同质化的世界里，实现自身的特色化就是最大的挑战。所以我们一直琢磨怎么让自己特色化，“4+2”是特色化，最近我们酝酿着教学改革，也是是希望能把它特色化。

Globalization makes the world tends to be alike. Under this circumstance, the homogeneity of the world, the challenge would be to keep our unique features. We have always been considering this, and 4+2 is a good example. We are incubating a reform in education lately, which would be the practice of keeping our own features.

如果不从教学考虑思考，整个中国建筑学危机是什么？
What is the crisis of the Chinese architecture, if not consider from the perspective of teaching?

中国建筑学本身没有危机。建筑学首先要有土壤，一个学科的发展应该和需求结合起来。英国的大学曾经探讨过是不是要把建筑学取消掉，为什么？它跟市场和社会的需求有关。最近国内学科评估过程中很多学校把自己的一些学科关了，这也与社会发展和社会需求紧密相关。建筑学在中国的需求非常强烈，尽管房地产好像有萎缩的趋势，但是城镇化建设，城市空间，乡村空间包括城市老旧核心区的改造、更新等方面对建筑学的需求还有很多。建筑学作为一门古老学科，在中国正在发挥着更大的活力。你说的危机，是指从建筑建设、内涵、学术层面来讲，中国建筑学可能面临着一个比较大挑战，这跟中国快速发展的城镇化进程有关。30多年来快速的城镇化发展，使得越来越多的人比较关注于眼前的利益，比较关注于投入产出的关系，比较关注于实用概念层面的思考。但是建筑学不是实用主义能够解释清楚的，不是一个纯粹应用科学。它将艺术、科学、技术、文化融为一体，通过人工环境营造，既满足使用功能，又带来精神享受，是文化层面一种建构。如果把一个学科的发展等同于市场需要，处处研究投入产出比，这个学科的发展方向就偏了。我想中国现在可能需要站在更高的角度思考建筑学能给人类带来什么，不要把建筑仅仅看成盖房子满足多少人居住。“诗意的栖居”就包含了建筑两个最主要的内涵：功能和精神。栖居是功能，诗意是精神，离开栖居建筑就是废品，而离开诗意建筑就跟一般装置没有区别。建筑学之所以吸引人，那么多人愿意投入其中，就是因为它拥有内涵的地方。

Architecture is not facing a crisis itself. There is a need of the ground where we combine the development of a subject with the needs. Universities in UK have had a discussion of whether they should cancel architecture. Why? It’s related to market and social needs. Some of the Chinese universities have deleted some subjects lately after the evaluation, which is also closely related to the development of social needs and developments. Although there seems to be a declining trend in real estate market, however, in the long urban transformation process, and in the construction for the urban and rural places, architecture is still in an urgent need. Being an old subject, architecture is showing its vitality in China. The crisis you mentioned, may refers to that at the level of construction, connotation, and academic, Chinese architecture may face a big challenge. The rapid urbanization in the development of China might leave us a big challenge. The development of the latest 3 decades, made many of us chase for short-term interests, care too much about the relationship between inputs and outputs, and concern too much about the practical properties of this subject. Yet, architecture is not something that pragmatism can explain, and it is not a practical and pure applied science. It should be a subject of combing with art, science and technology, as well as through environment constructions, it meets the needs of citizens and brings also the spiritual enjoyments. It is a construction in cultural aspect. If we see the development of a subject paralleled with the market demands, and always compare the inputs and outputs, we may get disorientated. I think now in China, we need to step a bit higher to think about what architecture could bring to people, instead of seeing architecture as just building houses for people to live. “Poetic living” embodies the two implications of architecture: function and spirit. “Living” is the function and “poetic” refers to spirit. Functions make the architecture reasonable, and spirit makes it meaningful. The implication of architecture is the most appealing part to which many of us are willing to devote.

▼庄惟敏院长代表项目，some of the representative projects by Zhuang Weimin

清华大学建筑学院开设了建筑策划的相关课程，这门课在学生当中反响如何？
The Architecture School of Tsinghua University has set up related courses in architectural programming. What’s students’ response?

我首先要对这门课程的定位做一个说明。前面讲到建筑学是一门艺术、技术、人文融于一体的学科，但是我们往往对建筑有所忽略。一个房子为什么建成十几年就拆了？那是因为对建筑的定位有问题。很多领导也好业主也好，都是从个人主观意愿出发，觉得应该有这样一个空间，或那样一个造型，缺乏科学性、逻辑性、严密性。出题没有出好，建筑师怎么能按照这个题作出优秀的建筑？所以我们一方面强调建筑文化建构，另一方面强调建筑的底线坚守。建筑策划是一个工具，研究如何科学合理地去建造房子。怎么出题，对于学生，特别是清华的学生尤为重要。让学生在受到大师和有名建筑师的讲座、授课、研讨的熏陶的同时还可以坚守自己最底线的责任是这门课的意义。这门课一直跟学生讲建筑底线的问题，这是原来大家不特别重视的。建筑师照着任务书做设计，却没有人研究过任务书有没有错。其实这门课西方上个世纪50年代就有了。二战以后，城市快速兴建，美国提出“用最少的钱盖最好的房子”的口号，这就是策划要解决的事。对学生而言建筑底线的要求是必要的。建筑策划有很多方法逻辑，其中要运用到统计学、大数据、运筹学等其他学科的知识，有些学生对这方面的兴趣还是比较大的。

I would like to firstly talk about the positioning of this subject. As I mentioned before, architecture is a joint subject of art, technology and humanity, whereas we used to neglect architecture itself. The reason that the architecture was demolished soon within only years of utility, is the problem of positioning. Leaderships and proprietor who only judging on their own willingness used to think there needs a place or a profile before the demolishing and construction process, without scientific, logic and rigorous judgment. How architects build right architectures if the theme was wrong? Thus we, on the one hand, emphasizes on the cultural construction of architecture, and on the other hand, we stress on the bottom line of architecture. Architecture Programming is just a tool to assist us in doing architectures reasonably. As for students, especially for students in Tsinghua University, how to make a good programming is important. What makes this course significant is that students could hold the responsibility of their baselines while receiving the lectures, teachings and discussions from the masters and great architects. We highlight the baseline of architecture, which is mostly neglected, during this course. Some architects used to follow up the assignment without questioning. This course, actually, has implemented in western countries since 1950s. After the World War II, cities are in rapid constructions, and the notion of “build the best house with the least money.” has been put forward by USA, and this is what programming is trying to deal with. For architecture school students, the baselines are necessary. It includes many methods in programming, and statistics, big data, operational research, or other subjects could also be involved. Some students show their great interests in this course.

▼庄惟敏教授在建筑策划课程讲授现场，during the lesson of Architecture Programming

作为中国顶级建筑学院院长，请您对广大学子提几句建议。
As the president of the school of architecture of the top university in China, what is your advice for the students?

我希望喜爱建筑学的年轻朋友们要把自己对建筑的喜爱实质化，不光要看到建筑很有冲动，很有共鸣，很能欣赏，还要透过表面的现象，看到一种责任。这是建筑师营造人工环境，融在自然环境里以适应人们使用的一种社会责任。上一届国际建协UIA大会的主题就是建筑师的社会责任。我们呼吁建筑师首先要有一种社会责任，把注意力放在基层建构最基本的底线上，放在为无助群体、弱势群体的营建上。我们今天建造的高精尖的房子等让人眼球一亮的东西不少了，但是为老百姓，为城市、弱势群体所做的建造真的不够。几十年前Charles Correa在UIA获得金奖，他的设计聚焦在低收入住宅上，其成果受到了世界的公认。我想人们对这位印度建筑师的推崇，正体现了建筑师的社会责任是大家的一个共识。

I hope that the young friends who love architecture can make their love of architecture materialize. These affections should not only be words or emotions nor appreciations. They should see responsibilities through the appearances. This responsibility for architects, is the adaptation of the built environment into the nature. The theme of the last UIA calls for the responsibility of architects. We call architects to have a social responsibility first, and lay stress on building baseline of grass-root, as well as the construction for vulnerable groups and helpless groups. We have more than enough high-tech buildings of coolness, whereas the architecture for citizens, for city itself and for the vulnerable groups is far from adequate. Many years ago, when Charles Correa won the golden price in UIA His design focuses on low-income housing and his achievements are recognized by the world. orld. This approved I think people’s admiration for the Indian architect reflects that the social responsibility of the architect is people’s consensus.

身兼清华大学建筑学院院长和清华建筑设计研究院院长两职，您一天怎样渡过的？
As the president of Architecture School and the president of the design institute, how do you spend a day?

我能力有限，只能把有限精力切块，基本还是要有一个权衡。设计院的工作主要是创作实践，因为设计院体系运用的是企业管理办法，很清楚经济杠杆和企业规范方式。但在学院要做的就非常多，包括学科发展、人才培养、教学、科研等一系列工作。相对而言我在学院里面花的精力更多。我清楚设计院这边实践的重要性。我在和宾州大学、康奈尔大学以及哥伦比亚大学建筑学院的院长们交流的时候，我们在一点上达到了共识，即老师一定要有实实在在的实际设计经验和建构技能才可以教授青年学生。也就是说你自己都不会盖房子，更不可能在学院里教建筑设计。在哥伦比亚大学，在宾大，在康奈尔，教建筑设计的一定都是有丰富设计实践经验的建筑师，宾大刚刚卸任的院长就是SOM背景出来的，现在哥伦比亚大学建筑学院的院长也是建筑师出身。所以我坚信作为建筑学院教授建筑设计的教师，首先应该是合格的建筑师，才能有理念传授给学生，要不然就是纸上谈兵。其实我挺享受这种状态的，在设计院我有自己的创作平台，可以将学生和老师们放到那边实习、做设计，我指导硕士研究生和博士研究生时，会要求他们每个人在读期间必须参与一个实际项目。

I have limited ability, so I have to balance the energy. I implement design practice in design institute. Since the institute is managed in business, we are clear about the economic levers and the business process management. While in academy, I do much more. Including scientific development, training talents, and teaching. I am clear about the importance of design practice in the institute. We, among the presidents in UPENN, Cornell and Columbia, all agree that teachers have to have practical design experience and construction knowledge before they teaching students. You cannot teach if you are unable to do architectures. In Columbia, UPENN and in Cornell, the professors are the architects with rich design experience. The former president of UPENN is from SOM and the architecture department chairman of Columbia is also an excellent architect. Thus, I believe, as the president of school of architecture, I must firstly become a qualified architect before I foster students and impact on colleagues in teaching. Otherwise, it would be empty talk actually quite enjoy the status. I have my own creative platform in the design institute and can send students and teachers there have internship and make design. When I teach postgraduate and doctoral students, I ask them to participate in a practical project during their studies.

▼清华大学建筑设计研究院官方宣传片，official video of Architectural Design and Research Institute, Tsinghua University

您刚才讲职业建筑师在学院任教更好，您在建筑创作上最近的关注点是什么？
You have mentioned that it’s better for professional architects to teach in institutes, , so what are your recent concerns about architectural creation?

建筑设计院是学院的产学研平台，所以设计院的项目选择以及建筑师的着重点跟教学是紧密结合的，引领着建筑学的发展方向。比如说绿色生态，比如说新农村改造，比如说数字化建构，比如说工业4.0结合，比如低碳，被动式，等等。这些关注点不止和市场有关，还和建筑学发展最重要的方向有关，所以建筑学院里面很多学术生长点、关键点都能在设计院里找到对应的关系，老师在设计院里有自己的工作室和研究平台比较关键。对我个人而言，我近几年比较聚焦在两个层面的研究上，一个是建筑策划，专门设有建筑策划咨询所，承接建筑策划项目。大量的政府投资项目必须进行策划和评估，以保证设计任务书科学合理。而对于兴建完成项目，比如住宅、学校、医院，则要通过我们的评估保证今后不要犯重复的错误。我的另外一个研究层面是绿色生态建筑和低碳建筑，比如说和MOMA一起做的被动式太阳房等。还有一类就是会影响城市交通、人群、居住模式、空间模式、公共空间和私有空间之间的关系的城市综合体，包括大会展中心、大剧场博物馆、大体育中心等。设计一定要有约束，有约束才有挑战，有挑战才有趣味。你能把甲方所有的要求都实现，不合理东西也给他转化过来，我觉得这个就是关键。

The design institute is the platform of production and research. Thus, the focal point of architects and the project implemented in the institute are closely connected and shows the direction of architecture development. The leading concepts of today are ecological development, rural transformation, digital constructions, low-Carbon, the combination of industry 4.0 and passive development. These are not only related to the market but also related to the direction of architecture development. Therefore, the growing and critical point of disciplines are matched to the practices in the institute. It is important for professors to have their own research platforms in the institute. In recent years, I mainly focus on two aspects. One is architecture programming, where I run architectural programming institute to undertake projects. Plenty of government invested projects must be schemed and evaluated, to ensure the assignments are scientific and reasonable. As for completed projects, such like residence, school, hospital, we need to ensure that there are no repeated mistakes. The other focal point is the ecological architecture and low-Carbon architecture. Such as the solar-house project we implemented with MOMA. Another pattern that I also devoted to is the urban complex, which would have effects on the transportation, citizens, living patterns, space patterns, and the relationship of private and public spaces. These complexes include exhibition centers, museums and theatres, sports centers etc. Design must have constraints, which can bring challenges, thus bring interests. You can realize all the requirements of the clients, even the unreasonable ones. I think this is the key.

如何看待中国和外国设计公司之间的博弈？现在建筑行业处于转型期，清华设计院的学术研究和实践方向是什么，是准备做怎样的调整？
What is your opinion in the game between Chinese and foreign design companies? Now the construction industry is in transition, what is the research and practice direction in the Design Institute of Tsinghua University, and what would be the adjustment?

30年前刚改革开放时大家更看重境外建筑师，他们出创意国内做配合，我们完全处于一个学习的状态。发展到今天，其实大家完全是在一个平台上合作，国内重大的国际投标项目不再是境外建筑师的天下。中国建筑师已经发挥了巨大的作用，显现出巨大的潜能，在某些创意层面一点不输给境外建筑师。现在有些项目确定由我们做后，我们会根据需要把其中某部分分包给外国公司。绿色生态技术方面就分包给绿色生态技术比较成熟的事务所，智能化方面就分包给智能化技术比较成熟的事务所。无论是在理念上，合作方式上，还是协作机制上都发生了变化。中国建筑师自身的成长以及他们的作为，加上现在社会发展的大环境，促成了这样一种设计状态。

Thirty years ago, at the beginning of Reform and Opening period, people thought highly of the foreign architects. When the foreign architects were implementing a project, the Chinese architects assisted them and were more like learning from them. Since the rapid development of China, we are now on the same stage as cooperation partners. They are no longer in charge of the big projects here in China, instead, the Chinese architects have shown their talents and potentials, and in some aspects we could do even better. Now when we are doing projects, we may split some parts, depending on the circumstances, to the foreign companies. We would send the ecological part to the company that is good at it, or split the intelligent part to the one that is mature in this field. Things have changed wherever it is in the method, cooperation or collaboration mechanism. The growth of Chinese architects and their actions, as well as the environment of rapid development make this happened.

10.

有人说“中国没有真正的建筑评论”，您认同这种评价吗？
Do you agree with the saying of “there are no real architecture reviews in China”?

对中国而言，应该营造一种公平公正、和谐透明的评价机制和氛围。中国市场项目太大太多，中国建筑师太忙，他们很难既做建筑又做评论。一个是精力不够，还有一个是建筑师在自己做建筑的时候，会对建筑评论本身存在着一定的想法，有一点情绪，这是机制问题。随着建筑学慢慢发展，我们的建设量缓下来，有批建筑师愿意做真正意义上的建筑评论家，我想这是好事。我们现在有很多不错的建筑评论家，比如说王明贤老师、李翔宁老师、周榕老师、金秋野老师等。他们都非常专业。

We should build an impartial, harmonious and transparent mechanism of comment and atmosphere. There are so many projects undertaking in such a big architecture market in China. And architects in China are too busy to make reviews while doing projects. They don’t have enough energy; besides, they have their own thoughts and sentiments in doing architecture design. It is caused by mechanisms. Since the development of architecture, the amount of construction work slowed down, some architects would like to be the real architecture critics. We actually do have many critics like Wang Mingxian, Li Xiangning, Zhou Rong, Jin Qiuye etc, who are all very professional.

▼受访中的庄惟敏院长，Professor Zhuang during interview