我们深信未建成项目蕴含的价值！每个建成项目的背后，都有无数项目停留在了纸面。这些项目因各种原因未能落成，但正是在这些未建成作品中，我们或许可以看到不受外界因素侵扰的最纯粹的建筑理念。谷德邀请不同事务所和建筑师提供他们最有代表性的未建成作品，了解未建成作品背后的思考及无限可能。未建成专辑第二期带来的是非常建筑，更多关于他们，请至：Atelier FCJZ on gooood

We believe that unbuilt projects have their own value! There are countless unbuilt projects behind a built project. Though these projects will never be completed, we might be able to see the purest architectural ideas in them. In Unbuilt Album, gooood introduce representative unbuilt projects of different architectural studios, helping to understand the ideas and possibilities behind these projects. Unbuilt no.2 introduces Atelier FCJZ . More about them: Atelier FCJZ on gooood

出品人：向玲 / Producer: Xiang Ling
编辑：陈诺嘉，武晨曦，杨子遥，石安 / Editor: Chen Nuojia, Wu Chenxi, Yang Ziyao, Shi Ann

▼视频，video（全文深度采访见下方文字。视频为5分钟精华版，建议选择高清1080p观看。）

1.
非常建筑建成和未建成项目的占比分别是多少？每年大概会有多少专为展览或研究做的概念性项目？
Among all the projects of Atelier FCJZ, what is the proportion of the projects that will never be completed? How many conceptual projects does the atelier have each year specifically for exhibitions or research?

一个建筑师事务所，所有项目中大概有三分之二盖不起来，原因各式各样。非常建筑28年平衡下来，未建成项目的数量可能比三分之二少一些，约有一半没盖起来。

非常建筑展览项目占我们工作总量的比例很小。以前有的时候建筑项目少，盖起来的更少，就会做一些展览。在展览中常常把一个足尺的装置建起来。后来建筑项目多了，就没有精力做展览了。最近在深圳的坪山美术馆做了一个展览的空间设计，用的木龙骨结构覆板材的建造体系，是我们2016年以来第一次做展览设计。

For an architectural office, about two thirds of all projects can never be built for various reasons. The case of Atelier FCJZ seems more optimistic, since that approximately half of the projects have been actually built when looking back on our 28 years of practice.

Exhibition projects account for a small proportion of Atelier FCJZ’s work. In the past we would occasionally organize some exhibitions when there were not quite a few architectural projects to do, and full-size installations were often built up in those exhibitions. Afterwards the number of architectural projects has significantly increased, and therefore we didn’t have too much energy to work on an exhibition. Recently we have finished the spatial design for an exhibition at Pingshan Art Museum in Shenzhen, for which we used a construction system of wooden keel structure clad with panels. This is also our first project for an exhibition since 2016.

▼非常建筑部分建成、未建成、展览和其他作品
Selected built, unbuilt, exhibition and other works by Atelier FCJZ

2.
您提供了郑州幼儿园和深圳科技馆两个未建成项目的资料。为什么选择这两个未建成的项目和我们分享？
Why did you choose the two projects, Zhengzhou Kindergarten and Shenzhen Science & Technology Museum, as the representative cases of your uncompleted projects?

这两个项目，一个是早期的，一个是最近的，时间拉得很开，看上去也挺不一样。郑州幼儿园是我们28年前做的，里面涉及的东西，如院落，一直是我的兴趣所在，如果有机会建成，我觉得也很好；深圳科技馆是两年前的竞赛项目，我到现在也对这个设计里的空间质量和结构形式很感兴趣。

There is a significant span of time between these two projects, and they also look quite different. Zhengzhou Kindergarten was a project we did 28 years ago, and the things involved in it, such as courtyards, are always been of interest to me. I think it would be gratifying if there were a chance to make it completed. Shenzhen Science & Technology Museum was a competition project we did two years ago, and for now I’m still attracted to both the quality of the spatial quality and structural form in this design.

3.
郑州幼儿园项目中便提出用传统中式庭院的模型来设计幼儿园，为孩子创造“曲径通幽”的乐趣。项目在立面上采用了散点透视的表现手法，使得图面在阅读上有一定的难度。为什么要采用这样的表现方式？
In the design of Zhengzhou Kindergarten, a prototype of traditional Chinese garden was used to provide children with the joy of “wandering on a winding and serene path . The facade of the project was expressed through a scattered perspective, which to some extent made the technical drawings difficult to read. Why did you choose such a way of expression?

透视是这么多年来我作为建筑师，也作为一个对美术感兴趣的人，一直抱有的兴趣之一。从十五世纪数学透视发明以来，慢慢地人们的思维变成照相模式，但实际上原本有很多不同的理解空间的方式。一个房子，你不可能同时体验到里和外；在房子外面，也不可能同时体验建筑的四个面。所以设计郑州幼儿园时，我们运用了一系列一点透视，把房子的不同面展开，就像一个人围着房子走了一圈。这些图确实比较难懂，就像你听不懂一门外语或方言，可是它自身的逻辑是很清楚的，只是需要学习它的语言系统。这种方法给业主看肯定有问题，因为他们的视觉思维是摄影的方式。但是建筑师画图不仅仅是为了和业主沟通的，其实首先是给自己看的，看能不能对项目的空间想象有一些启发、一些推动。

Perspective is one of the interests I have held for years, both from the angel of an architect and a lover of fine art. Since the invention of mathematical perspective in the 15th century, people gradually come to have a photographical way of thinking, but in fact there are numerous ways of perceiving a space. For example, it is impossible to experience both the inside and outside of a house simultaneously; nor can you experience its all four sides when standing at a point outside. Therefore, when designing Zhengzhou Kindergarten, we used a series of one-point perspectives that unfolded the different facades of the building, just like the view of a person who moved along the perimeter of it. It is not easy to understand the drawings, just like to understand a foreign language you are not familiar with, but there is a clear logic behind them, which only requires to learn about its language system. It might be a problem for the clients because they look and think in a photographical way. But the drawings are not developed only for the clients, they are first and foremost for the architects themselves to help inspire and promote the spatial imagination of the project.

▼郑州幼儿园图纸，采用多个一点透视
drawings of Zhengzhou Kindergarten, using a series of one-point perspectives ©非常建筑

▼郑州幼儿园总平和交通空间分析
site plan of Zhengzhou Kindergarten and circulation analysis ©非常建筑

▼郑州幼儿园立面图
elevations of Zhengzhou Kindergarten ©非常建筑

4.
将传统院落转译到现代建筑中的设计理念一直在非常建筑的项目中有所体现。请介绍一下郑州幼儿园中是如何融入院落概念的？经过近30年的发展，这种设计理念产生了怎样的变化？
The concept of translating traditional courtyards into modern architecture has been frequently reflected in Atelier FCJZ’s projects. How was the concept of courtyard incorporated in the design of Zhengzhou Kindergarten？How has this concept changed over the 30 years of practice?

对院落的认识当然会有变化，在郑州幼儿园和深圳科技馆设计中都有所体现。两个项目中空间和空间之间都有一种串联的关系，只不过所使用的的结构体系不一样，结果一个的形态比较简单明确，一个相对复杂。郑州幼儿园也不是第一个体现出我对院落兴趣的项目，30年前我就画过很多有院子的房子，其中有三个在宁波得以实现，马上就要盖好了，所以做建筑师还是得有耐心。

The perception of courtyards has of course changed, which is reflected in the design of both the kindergarten and the museum. In these two projects there were a series of links between the spaces, but achieved by different structural systems. They resulted in a simple and clear form in one case and a relatively complicated one in the other. Zhengzhou Kindergarten was not the first project that demonstrated my interest in courtyards, since I conceived many houses with courtyards about 30 years ago, and three of them are being realized in Ningbo to be finished soon. Therefore, it is important for an architect to be patient.

▼宁波东钱湖专家工作室1995年手稿
hand drawings for Ningbo Dongqian Lake Studio ©非常建筑
（左）屋顶平面与院墙外侧，（右）平面与院墙内侧
(left) roof plan and out line of the courtyard walls, (right) plan and the inner side of the courtyard walls

▼宁波东钱湖专家工作室（在建）
Ningbo Dongqian Lake Studio （under construction) ©非常建筑

5.
非常建筑设计的深圳科技馆入选了竞赛中标候选方案，请介绍一下这个项目中的设计思考。您如何看待大型公共建筑与自然的关系？
The proposal for Shenzhen Science & Technology Museum by Atelier FCJZ was selected as the finalist of the competition. Please share us the concept of the design. And how do you consider the relationship between large public facilities and nature?

我很少用自然这个词。现在的房子首先是在城市里，主要是跟城市的关系。深圳科技馆项目选址在一座公园里，可能离自然稍微近一些，可是说到底它还是在一个城市环境里，公园本身也是一种人造的自然环境。人和建筑是一宅一园两种关系。一个是居住，人待在里头就是宅；另一个是游，人在里面转悠就是园。展览馆、美术馆、包括深圳科技馆都是游的关系。伴随着这种关系，我们会考虑一些问题，比如一层一层空间是截然分开，还是不知不觉从一个标高到另外一个标高？深圳科技馆就是后者，虽然建筑有不同标高，但是没有分得一清二楚的楼层。

I rarely use the word nature. Buildings for nowadays are more in a narrative of cities and connected to urban environments. Shenzhen Science & Technology Museum is located in a park, which may be a little closer to nature, but it is essentially a project embedded in an urban context, as the park itself is an artificial natural environment. The relationship between human and architecture can be divided into two types: one is residence-related and the other is courtyard-related. The former is about inhabiting, as a residence refers to living inside; while the latter is about moving, as a courtyard allows us to stroll around. Exhibition centers and art museums, including the Shenzhen Science & Technology Museum, are all involved with the act of touring and visiting. Along with such a relationship, there will be some questions for us to consider, like whether the layers of spaces should be separated observably or should alter between different levels in an imperceptible way? Shenzhen Science & Technology Museum is an example of the latter, where the floors and levels are not clearly separated, even if the building itself varies in elevations.

▼深圳科技馆鸟瞰效果图，位于城市公园之中
aerial rendering of Shenzhen Science & Technology Museum located in an urban park ©非常建筑

▼建筑与周边环境
relationship between the building and its surroundings ©非常建筑

6.
深圳科技馆的评委评语中，大多认为项目理念很新颖，但是在实施上可能比较困难。你们在竞赛方案中对于结构、材料等实际建造中会遇到的问题会思考到怎样的深度？
According to the comments by the Jury of the competition, Atelier FCJZ’s proposal for Shenzhen Science & Technology Museum was considered as very innovative, but might have difficulties in realizing. How far did the team go in dealing with the challenges in structures or materials that would be encountered in actual construction?

非常建筑对材料、建造和结构都特别感兴趣，每个项目都会在很早的阶段就开始考虑这些问题。我们做竞赛设计会做得比要求的深，会画清楚结构的体系，请结构工程师估出结构构件的尺寸、悬挑的量等，了解自己的设计是不是可行。整个深圳科技馆可以看做是一层层起伏的桁架，其中有若干个接触点。尽管项目中没有柱子，但每个接触点可以想象成是一根柱子，将层与层在不同位置捏在一起。然而，结构中更具挑战性的地方在打开的部分。建筑中有许多半室外半室内空间，我们要考虑每个空间怎么打开，能悬挑多少，为此我们跟结构工程师进行了多次沟通。最后出来的量都是可以实现的，我们不允许自己去想以后不会做的东西。跟我们合作的设计单位对于钢结构很有经验，而非常建筑对混凝土技术也比较了解。再过一段时间我们会有一个新的大挑檐项目落成，悬挑接近十几米，只是相对深圳科技馆来说没有那么复杂。

Atelier FCJZ always has great interest in material, construction and structure, and takes all these relative issues into consideration from the very early stages of each project. Usually we go further than required for a design competition, for example, we will progress to detailed drawings of structural systems, and will ask structural engineers to estimate the scale of the structural elements and cantilevers to make sure if the design is feasible. The entire project of Shenzhen Science & Technology Museum can be imagined as an undulating, multi-layered system of trusses that contains several points of junction. It was a structure with no columns but each junction can be perceived as a column that pinched the layers together at different locations. The more challenging parts of the structure were those open areas. There were a large quantity of semi-outdoor and semi-indoor spaces in the project, for which we had to repeatedly discuss with the structural engineers on how each space would open up and how much it was allowed to be cantilevered. The final results of the measurements were always achievable, since we would never allow ourselves to aimlessly think about what we are not going to do in the future. The architects we cooperated with are very experienced with steel structures, and in the meantime Atelier FCJZ has a good understanding of concrete technology. In the days to come, we will have a new large cantilevered building completed, with an overhang of more than ten metres, but it is not as complicated compared to Shenzhen Science & Technology Museum.

▼深圳科技馆剖面图，结构经过认真考量
section of Shenzhen Science & Technology Museum, the structure was carefully considered ©非常建筑

7.
从剖面上看，深圳科技馆的方案创造了一个非常通透的、具有高度连通性的场所。它借助一张多重层叠的网在科技馆中创造出五层关联。您如何考量这种延绵互通的空间对于实际布展的影响？未来的展览空间可能是什么样的？
Viewed from the sections, the proposal for Shenzhen Science & Technology Museum provides a permeable and highly connected place. It creates five levels of connections within the building by using a net consisting of multiple layers. How do you consider the impact of such continuous and interconnected spaces on the arrangement of exhibitions?

深圳科技馆里是科技展览，涉及当今科技、能源、气候变化等很多实实在在的问题。它不像典型的历史博物馆，在黑房间里给大家展示另一个时空的景象；科技馆里看到的是今天正在发生的事情，我们所做的空间、包括人造的小气候本身就是展览的内容。技术对建筑师来说不一定是最有意思的，建筑师所做的无非就是创造空间，给人带来体验，和技术结合起来把一件事情说得比较清楚。有一个丹麦艺术家可以通过光、镜子和投影等手段做出特别神奇的效果，但这些实际上是我们要呈现的内容，而不是建筑师的工作本身。现在虚拟现实已经发展到了不仅仅是看，也可以用身体感受的程度，但是它不可能取代建筑学和建筑空间，因为人总有摘下眼镜、回到现实的时候，而建筑做的恰恰是真实的空间。除了形式，还有重量、气味、触觉、温度等很多其它的体验，所有这些都是组成现实空间的元素。如何把这些元素调动起来，是我们建筑师做的工作。

The exhibitions held in Shenzhen Science & Technology Museum are sci-tech themed, which involve various real issues of today such as technology, energy, climate change and so on. It is not like a typical historical museum that presents the visitors with scenes of another time and space within dark boxes. What you see in the Science & Technology Museum is what is happening today, and the spaces we made, including the artificial microclimates, are themselves part of the exhibition. Technology is not necessarily the most interesting part for architects. What architects do is to create spaces, to provide people with an experience, and to combine them with technical skills in order to achieve a clearer narrative. There is a Danish artist who uses light, mirrors, projections and other means to create particularly magical scenes, but these are actually the content to be present in exhibitions, rather than the task for architects. Virtual reality has now developed to the point where it can not only be visually perceived, but also be experienced physically with the body. However, it is still not able to replace architecture or the architectural spaces, because there comes a time when people take off the glasses and come back to the true reality. On the contrary, architecture engages with the real space in an authentic way. In addition to forms, there are all sorts of sensory experiences including weight, smell, touch, temperature, etc., all of which are the elements that make up the real space. It is the work of architects to figure out how could these elements be mobilized.

▼气象互动景观
climate interactive landscape ©非常建筑

▼对不同展览情景的设想 – 剧场模式展厅
Imagination for different exhibition scenes – exhibition hall like a theater ©非常建筑

▼对不同展览情景的设想 – 展板模式展厅
Imagination for different exhibition scenes – exhibition hall with display boards ©非常建筑

▼创造不同体验的空间
Create space with different experiences ©非常建筑
（左上）高温环境：太阳能水晶球+未来能源探索基地，（右上）凉爽环境：无叶风扇+科技集市
（左下）高噪音环境：智能音乐亭，（右下）低噪音环境：降噪球+黑客挑战赛场
(upper left) solar energy crystal ball + exploration base for future energy, (upper right) cool environment: bladeless fan + technology market
(lower left) high temperature environment: high sound level environment: intelligent music pavilion, (lower right) low sound level environment: acoustic ball + hacker challenge

8.
碳中和是未来的一大发展趋势，自行车便是一种很好的零碳排放的交通工具。您曾经设计过一套自行车住宅，设想了人与自行车共存的生活方式。在现在的环境下，您如何看待这个项目与其背后的生活方式？
Carbon neutrality has become a major trend of development for the future, and bicycles are a good means of transportation to achieve the zero-carbon goals. You have designed a bicycle house that envisages a lifestyle where people and bicycles coexist. How do you see this project and the lifestyle behind it in the current environment?

我一直想给自行车宅找个业主，还没有成功。现在我们在厦门设计了一个骑自行车逛的商业中心。业主找我们，说想要在海边做一个商场，搞一些极限运动。我说除了极限运动，是不是也可以让大家骑着车在楼里逛街、消费什么的，他们觉得挺好，就做了下去，本来已经做到扩初了，但又停了下来。现在，人们慢慢意识到了健康的重要性。健康跟舒适享受可能并不能完全用同一种思考方式来对待的。但我想两者大家都想要。我们做的事情和碳中和其实不太一样。建筑材料生产过程中会产生碳，使用时也会排放碳，这是一个比较大的系统性的问题，不是一两个房子就可以解决的。而建筑设计里一个很重要的内容，就是被动式设计。房子采光好了、通风好了、布局合理，就可以节省很多能源。在这一点上建筑设计可以永远做下去，也不增加什么技术上的复杂性。而清洁能源、垃圾在地回收处理之类的复杂技术，都是额外的举措。

I have been trying to find an owner for the bicycle house for a long time, without success yet. Now we have designed a commercial centre in Xiamen where people can cycling around. The client asked us to design a seaside shopping mall with venues for extreme sports. On the basis of the brief I suggested to add an extra programme that dedicated to cycling, which would allow people to pass through the shopping mall on their bicycles. They thought this was a good idea and went ahead with it, but finally the plan stopped midway. People nowadays are gradually realizing the importance of keeping healthy. Health and comfort are both what people want, in spite of they may not be thought of in the same way. What we have done is different from just achieving carbon neutral. Carbon is generated and emitted during the production and use of construction materials, which is a relatively large systemic problem that cannot be solved by simply one or two houses. Here, the passive design becomes a rather important content in our architectural projects. With better lighting, better ventilation and more reasonable layout, a house can save a mass of energy. This is a point that can be perpetually dug in the aspect of architectural design without increasing any technical complexity. What we treat as complex technologies, such as clean energy and in-situ waste recycling, are actually accessional solutions.

▼厦门自行车商业中心鸟瞰渲染图
aerial rendering of the commercial center in Xiamen where people can cycling around ©非常建筑

▼与自行车道结合的建筑空间
architectural space integrated with bicycle lanes ©非常建筑

所谓的未来也许跟现在不同，可是可能跟过去是完全一样的。过去的生活方式和现在的很不一样，但不能简单地认为以前人就在一个资源匮乏的环境里，他们那种节俭的生活方式在今天有很大的发展空间。今天因为对环境和健康的意识，使我们愿意重新采纳以前的生活方式，包括多骑点车，不仅是因为健康和节能，觉得骑车使生活更方便更有意思。以我自己的生活为例，大概有一个直径为步行四十分钟左右的活动范围，周末几乎都是走路，稍微远一点就骑车。一旦你自己认可这种生活方式，然后慢慢就会养成习惯。现在的城市密度一定程度上是不够的，它的尺度是汽车的尺度，不是人的尺度。传统城市中没有诸如堵车这些问题，因为当时没有这些资源，也就不会犯某些错误。现在这些错误已经犯了，而且在过去几十年里不知道重复犯了多少遍，大家应该开始意识到了改变的需要了。

The so-called future may be different from the present, but can be exactly the same as the past. We can’t simply assume that people used to live in an environment that was poor in resources. Their frugal way of living provides us with a lot of scope for development today. The awareness of environment and health has made people today willing to re-adopt the lifestyle of the past, including choosing bicycle for commuting. It is not only for the purpose of keeping healthy, but also for that we feel cycling makes life more convenient and interesting. For myself, there is a sphere of activities with a diameter of about forty minutes walking, and I walk almost every weekend, or ride a bike for further destinations. Once you have accepted such way of living, it will then become a habit. The density of the city now is in some way insufficient, and it’s on the scale of cars, not that of people. In conventional cities there were no such problems as traffic jams — the lack of resources eliminate the risk of making mistakes. Now that these mistakes have been made, and repeated countless times over the last few decades. People are supposed to start to realize the necessity of change.

▼自行车宅轴测图
axonometric drawing of the bicycle house ©非常建筑

▼自行车宅模型
model of the bicycle house ©非常建筑

9.
2018年的China House Vision探索家展览中您设计了砼器概念住宅，对于未来人的生活方式您有哪些新的想法？
For the China House Vision exhibition in 2018, you designed the Concrete Vessel, a conceptual prototype of dwelling. Do you have any new ideas for the way people will live in the future?

我们准备在宜兴给自己盖一栋这样的房子住。它的特点无非就是内向，就像咱们传统的四合院，中间有一个庭院。现在市场上比较大的户型，房间数量都是超过买房子的人的需要的。大房子意味着更多房间，可是一个有能力买大房子的家庭并不意味着人多，加上如今一般家庭生活中很少有客人住在家里，结果就多出了一堆空着的房间。考虑到我的家里就我们两个人，偶尔来个客人，所以我们的住宅首先不是很大。只有我们俩人的时候空间是完全打开的，如果来了客人就用活动隔断隔出他的休息空间。我们给一些人看了项目的图纸，发现好多人都想住在这样的房子里。估计等房子盖起来，会有更多人喜欢。

We are now planing to build a house like that in Yixing as our private residence. It is nothing more than an introverted structure, like a traditional house with a courtyard in the middle. Large-sized apartments on the market now have more rooms than the users actually need. A big residence means more rooms, but the purchaser who can afford it doesn’t have to be a family of more members. Guests now barely choose to stay overnight, which leaves a bunch of rooms unused. Considering that we are designing a home for two people, occasionally with a guest, we don’t have to begin with a large-sized plan. When there are just only two of us, the space of the house can be completely open; In other cases it is convenient to use movable partitions to create a temporary bedroom for our guest. We have showed some people the drawings of the project, and found that many of them are willing to live in a house like that. I believe there will be more people who like it when they see the result.

▼砼器，非常建筑为2018 China House Vision探索家展览设计的概念住宅（点击这里查看更多）
Concrete Vessel, conceptual housing designed by Atelier FCJZ for the China House Vision exhibition in 2018 (click HERE to view more) ©田方方

▼张永和为自己设计的宜兴工作室兼自宅
Studio and House in Yixing designed by Yung Ho Chang ©非常建筑

▼宜兴工作室，隔断可以全部打开
Studio in Yixing, the partitions could be completely open ©非常建筑

▼宜兴工作室轴测图
axonometric of the Studio in Yixing ©非常建筑

10.
寻找马列维奇和寻找帕拉迪奥是两个有着一定延续性的展览装置，通过取景器发现特殊的风景，有点像是建筑中的框景。通常您会投入多少精力在这些纯概念性的项目上？它们对于建筑和城市的思考有哪些帮助和启发？未来还希望做哪方面的实验和探讨？
“Looking for Malevich”and “Looking for Palladio”were two sets of exhibition devices that had relevance with each other, which used distinct Vew-Finders to capture views, sort of like“framing”in architecture. How much effort do you usually put into these purely conceptual projects? How have they helped and inspired your thinking about architecture and cities? What other experiments and explorations would you like to do in the future?

刚才讲到过透视，其实透视背后是我对美术的兴趣。我一直喜欢画画，西画里面的画框就是一个取景框。人和空间的关系就是透视。寻找马列维奇和寻找帕拉迪奥两个装置里有透视、有取景框，都是在讨论这个问题。今年八月在坪山美术馆，我们会把五个跟透视和空间有关系的装置放到一起办一场展览，装置里的框子可以想象成是建筑，帮助人跟对面的景象建立起一种不同的关系，并不是多么深奥。

As I just mentioned about perspective, what behind it is actually my interest in fine art. I always love painting, and the frame in Western painting can be also perceived as a view-finder, and the perspective refers to the relationship between people and space. Both“Looking for Malevich”and “Looking for Palladio” discussed the issues of perspective and framing. In August this year, we will gather these five installations that relate to perspective and space together to form an exhibition at Pingshan Art Museum. The frames appeared in the installations can be imagined as buildings, helping visitors to establish a unique relationship with the scenery on the opposite side, which is not so abstruse as surmised.

比起建筑，一幅画里的取景框要单纯得多。建筑有意思的地方很难用语言表达出来，视觉上的东西其实一看就会明白。人怎么理解时间的长短和空间的大小？大家以为这种理解是明确的，可是实际上如果不看钟表、不丈量空间，你根本不知道它有多长、多大。而且人的体验会受到很多复杂因素的影响，比如一个陌生空间从这头走到那头，明明距离是一样的，但是你会觉得去的时候挺长，回来用时较短。我们在乌镇美术馆的空间设计中就利用了这种透视和体验的关系，把一个静态空间的透视通过设计一方面大大夸张，另一方面大大削弱。而人是活的，走过去时会觉得空间是拉长的，反过来却觉得空间是压缩的；一面走仿佛多花了时间，另一面走时间又变短了。最终这个空间这段时间恰恰是要让人不需要知道大小长短，从而能够更好地去享受时空体验本身。

The framing in a painting is much more simple than in architecture. Compared to describing what is interesting about architecture, it is much easier to do the same thing visually. How do people understand the length of time and the scale of space? They think it is a quite clear way of understanding, but in fact they have no idea how long or how big it is without looking at the clock or physically measuring the space. Additionally, people’s experience will be affected by a series of complicated factors, for example, when departing for an unfamiliar place, you may feel it took much more time to get there but a shorter time to get back, even though the distance is obviously the same. In the design of the Wuzhen Art Museum, we also took advantage of this relationship between perspective and experience, exaggerating the perspective of a statice space on the one hand and narrowing it as far as possible on the other. As the visitors moving between the two ends of the venue, they were provided with two reversed experiences: an extended space with a long span of time; and a compressed space with a shot span of time. Ultimately the design was meant to fuzz up the visitors’ perception on the scale of both space and time to enable them to better enjoy the space-time itself.

11.
您作为建筑师参与了深圳坪山美术馆的《九层塔》展览设计，可以和我们谈谈您为这个展览设计的空间，以及您与其他设计师和艺术家的合作过程吗？据悉，您还将在深圳举办新的建筑个展，是否能透露一些相关的信息？
You were involved as the spatial designer for the exhibition Nine-Tiered Pagoda: Spatial and Visual Magic at Pingshan Art Museum. Could you please tell us about the space you designed and the process of your collaboration with the other designers and artists? We have also heard about that you will have a solo exhibition in Shenzhen recently, would you mind sharing us something about that?

九层塔是把我们这些老头放在一起做的一个展览，包括平面设计，也是老将出马。四位艺术家分别是陈文骥，丁乙，粱诠和谭平，都是画抽象画的；平面设计师是韩家英。我本身很喜欢美术，所以他们想到找我来做空间设计。这个设计可以说是一栋非常简单的房子，有材料、有结构、也有空间，这些元素共同形成了一个体验。所谓抽象画，它的质量聚焦在画作本身，而我们的设计则聚焦在建筑本身。我们搭建了几堵墙，展示画家的作品。这些墙是夹壁墙，里面有的空间可以进去或上去里面挂了一些小画；也有的空间可以看出来，看外面的画或其他参观展览的人。抛开丰富的空间体验，整个空间其实相当简单，主要还是让大家把注意力放在画作上。建筑空间的体验也许比较丰富一些，但没有另外成为一个故事，无非就是游，体验大空间、小空间、亮空间、暗空间；有坐的地方，也有像剧场的地方。抽象画有现代的一面，也有古典的质量，从这个角度看待抽象画是我们做设计的一个出发点。能否体会到其中的古典精神是一件因人而异的事，几位艺术家们体会到了，策展人崔灿灿体会到了，刘晓都作为馆长，有建筑师背景，也体会到了，并且认为这其中有一种仪式性、纪念性。

Nine-Tiered Pagoda is an exhibition that calls us old guys together, including several veteran graphic designers. The four artists are Chen Wenji, Ding Yi, Liang Quan and Tan Ping, who all specialize in abstract paintings, and the graphic designer is Han Jiaying. They know about my passion on fine arts and that is why they asked me to do the spatial part for the exhibition. The design can be described as a minimalist house where the materials, structure and space collectively form its experience. Whereas the so-called abstract painting focuses its quality on the painting itself, our design focuses on the building itself. We have built several partition walls to display the artists’ works, which include gaps inside where the visitors can walk in to see some small pieces of paintings; there are also some spaces from where you can look at both paintings and visitors outside. Aside from the richness of the spatial experience, it is in fact a very simple space whose objective is to draw visitors’ attention to the paintings. The architectural space doesn’t meant to provide another story. It just offers a route for visitors to experience the spaces that vary in size and brightness, including those seats and theatre-like areas. Abstract art has its modern and classical facets, and thus recognizing abstract art from a new perspective became a starting point for us to do engage with the design. It is a relatively personal issue whether or not one can appreciate the classical spirit from the pieces, but it is sure that the artists made it, so did the two curators Cui Cancan and Liu Xiaodu, and as simultaneously an architect and the director of the museum, Liu was conscious of the ritualistic and monumental quality in it.

12.
您的兴趣十分广泛，在绘画、写作、戏剧等领域都有所涉足。对您来说，作为建筑师在“建成”之外还要有哪些追求？
You have a wide range of interests that encompass painting, writing and theatre. For you, what else do you think is important to pursue as an architect apart from “making projects built”?

我喜欢的东西比较多，但有的人就爱做设计，一礼拜七天都那么干。西扎现在快九十岁了，一辈子都在做建筑，去学校也是教节点设计。而我就是什么都喜欢，也许和我的美术背景有关。像是我的办公室墙面上的挂毯设计，图案是我画的，里面的格子似乎和建筑有一点关系，可是实际上就只是一幅平面作品。最近我正在做一本自己的摄影书，里面是我用手机拍的照，大多是人像，书籍设计是由陆智昌先生。

I do have a lot of interests, while some people are just passionate for one thing, maybe design, and they prefer doing that seven days a week. Siza is now near 90 years old and is still busy on architectural practice and teaching design at school. I’m a lover of various kinds of things, maybe it’s because of my art background. For example, I drew the pattern of the tapestry on the wall of my office, of which the grid seems to have something to do with architecture, but in reality it is just a graphic work. Recently I have been working on a book that contains my own photographic works taken with my cellphone, and mostly are portraits. Mr. Lu Zhichang takes charge of the book design.

我觉得现代社会经过资本主义多年的发展，过于强调社会分工这件事了。想到一个人，这人必须有一个职业，并且一直干这个，他的兴趣并不重要。我喜欢什么都尝试着做点，现在正好也有机会。有些人也许会认为建筑师这样是不务正业，但这就是我，我就喜欢这样，没必要去限制自己。

Modern society, in my opinion, has placed too much emphasis on division of labor after years of capitalism. When talking about a person, it is almost inevitably to give a definition to his or her profession and presuppose that it will permanently last, like it is not important to understand his or her interests. I would try my hand at everything I feel interesting, and now I’ve got the opportunity to do so. Some people may think it’s not proper for an architect to be like that, but it is exactly the way I like. There is no need to be self-constrained.

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