gooood Interview NO.35 – Steven Holl Architects

gooood团队采访世界各地的有趣创意人，欢迎您的推荐和建议。第35期为您奉上的是 Steven Holl Architects 的创始人 Steven Holl 和北京办公室合伙人 Roberto Bannura 的访谈，更多关于他们，请至：Steven Holl Architects on gooood

gooood team interviews creative from all over the world. Your recommendations and suggestions are welcomed! gooood Interview NO.35 introduces Steven Holl , founder of Steven Holl Architects, and their Beijing office partner Roberto Bannura. More: Steven Holl Architects on gooood

出品人：向玲 | Producer: Xiang Ling
摄影：陈诺嘉，杨子遥，姜艾钰 | Camera: Chen Nuojia, Yang Ziyao, Jiang Aiyu
编辑团队：陈诺嘉，杨子遥，武晨曦，石安，柳霖 | Editor: Chen Nuojia, Yang Ziyao, Wu Chenxi, Shi An, Liu Lin

Interview

▼视频，video（全文深度采访见下方文字。视频为6分钟精华版，建议选择高清1080p观看。）
Youtube link：https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtxIcqyDpfc

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设计与概念
Design and Concept

“驱动设计的想法或概念是极为重要的，我不希望在不同基地上重复同一种形式……在做建筑设计的同时阅读哲学、诗歌和文学作品是十分重要的。这会让你的思想更加肥沃，产生各种各样的概念想法……功能并不是设计的决定性力量。建筑中必须有一个诗意的概念来引领设计。”

“Having an idea or a leading concept to drive a design is incredibly important. I don’t try to repeat a style from one site to the next…The parallel reading of philosophy and poetry and literature while you’re working as an architect is very important. When you’re doing that, you fertilize your mind with different ideas…Function is not the driving force. There needs to be a poetic idea that drives the design.”

1.
您在欧洲接受建筑教育，在纽约成立SHA事务所并发展为世界顶级知名建筑事务所，您认为您的设计可以概括为哪几个阶段？什么是贯穿其中的永恒主题/信念？经过几十年在不同国家的实践，您的信念发生了哪些变化？
After studying architecture in Europe, you founded SHA in New York and it has developed into a world-renowned architectural design company. What are the stages of your architectural career? And what is the unchanged theme/faith throughout your life as an architect? After decades of years of practicing in different countries, what has changed in your design philosophy?

这个问题可以写一本书来回答。我想在罗马的学习是一个十分重要的阶段。1970年，我离开华盛顿大学到罗马生活，那段时间我的思想发展发生了重要的变化。之后我到伦敦建筑联盟工作，在那里结识了扎哈·哈迪德（我们成为了一生的朋友），查尔斯·詹克斯，埃利亚·增希利斯，雷姆·库哈斯等许多人。1977年，我在纽约设立了自己的工作室，主要进行教学和写作。1986年，我在马撒葡萄园岛建造了一栋小房子。1986年，我参与了大量设计竞赛并且中标了柏林图书馆，但是由于1988年柏林的恐怖袭击，该项目最终没能建成。在我看来，1994年赢得赫尔辛基KIASMA美术馆设计竞赛让我得以将事务所一直运营下去，维持至少5~6人的规模。1989年在我41岁的时候，我在现代艺术博物馆（MOMA）举办了一场展览，并为其写了一份题为《Anchoring》的宣言，其中说道：“每栋建筑都应发展自其所处的基地、环境和文化。它应该拥有一个独特的概念，这个概念与建筑的现象息息相关。”

That’s a question that would take a book to answer. But I would say that my study in Rome was a very major stage. In 1970, when I went from the University of Washington to live in Rome, that was a major change and a major stage in the development of my thinking. Then my work in London at the Architecture Association where I met Zaha Hadid (we remained friends for life), Charles Jencks, Elia Zenghelis, Rem Koolhaas and other people who were there. I started my own practice in New York in 1977. I was teaching mostly and writing. I had a small house that I built at Martha’s Vineyard in 1986. I entered a lot of competitions and we won the Berlin Library. It was never built because of an attack in1988 in Berlin. I think the competition that I won in 1994 for KIASMA in Helsinki was probably the beginning of me always having a practice of five or six people at least. I had an exhibition at the Museum of Modern Art in 1989 when I was 41. For this exhibition, I wrote a manifesto called Anchoring with the idea that each building should be developed from its own site, circumstance and culture. It should have a unique idea that ties the phenomena of the building together.

▼Steven Holl在罗马
Steven Holl in Rome ©Steven Holl

▼Steven Holl在MOMA的展览海报
poster for Steven Holl’s exhibition at MoMA ©Steven Holl

我写了五本书。第一本是《Anchoring》，第二本是《Intertwining》，第三本名为《House》，第四本是《Urbanisms: Working with Doubt》。最新的一本书名字叫《Compression》，其中我提出了一些与近年的神经学研究成果相关的想法。所有这些书都采用相同的格式，是我在1989年《Anchoring》中提出的理念的延续和发展。

I’ve written five different books. The first one was Anchoring. The second book was Intertwining. The third was House, the fourth Urbanisms: Working with Doubt, and the most recent one is called Compression where I bring some of the ideas to bear on recent neurological findings. They’re all in the same format. They continue and develop these ideas, a continuum of the single manifesto that I wrote in Anchoring in 1989.

▼Steven Holl写的五本书，five books written by Steven Holl ©Steven Holl

▼Steven Holl早期设计的部分关键作品
important projects designed by Steven Holl in his early stages

2.
在几十年的设计生涯中，您如何源源不断地获取设计灵感，保持“think out of the box”?
Over the years of engaging in design, how do you constantly obtain new design inspiration and keep “thinking out of the box”?

《Anchoring》中我提出的核心原则之一是每个基地和环境都是独一无二的。因此，我在捷克共和国做的项目会和在其他国家，如意大利、美国或中国做的项目十分不同。每个基地都是不一样的，你需要花费一定的时间去调研，提出新的想法来统领设计。对我来说，驱动设计的想法或概念是极为重要的，然而获得它们的过程会很艰难。你需要事先进行大量的思考和前期工作。我不希望在不同基地上重复同一种形式。

任何事物都拥有属于自己的独特概念，这也是每个项目所面临的挑战。在看过我们的工作后，你可以发现我们使用了大量不同的想法。很快我们在上海做的COFCO文体中心和医疗服务站项目即将开放，我对此感到十分兴奋。这个项目是关于一片巨大的圆形空间和圆形花园的组成，我从来没有在其他地方用到过这个概念。它的灵感来自于哲学家Karl Popper的文字：时钟与云朵。主要的公共空间位于健康中心和文化中心之间，呈简单的圆形，如同一块钟表，是设计概念的核心。其他部分则像是云朵，切割、摇摆、形状不定。最初的设计概念不过是一张不超过B6尺寸的水彩草图，这是所有建筑的起点。我在Rhinebeck的办公室画出了这张草图，然后把它发给北京办公室。我在北京的合伙人兼左右手Roberto会将其转化成具体的设计，并一直跟进到施工。现在这个项目即将开业，它是我们工作方式的一个范例。在接到项目后，我马上到上海考察基地。我看到了基地的现状，也看到了运河。项目要为一片巨大的既有住宅区设计一栋文化和健康建筑，因此我需要处理好项目和周边平庸的住宅楼之间的关系。之后我回到纽约工作并提出了这个概念，如今它已经成为了现实。我对它感到十分自豪，它是团队合作的成果，北京办公室的十二名同事都在其中倾注了自己的心血。我们会在纽约和北京之间往复交接，实现不间断工作。我会全程跟踪项目，确认每一个细节。在我们参与项目的时期，一个独特的概念将会推动设计成为一个伟大的项目。

One of the core principles in Anchoring is that each site and circumstances is unique. Therefore, when I’m working in a culture like in the Czech Republic, it’s very different from when I’m working in Italy or in America or in China. Every site is different so there needs to be a period of research and you need to have a new idea that drives the design. To me, having an idea or a leading concept to drive a design is incredibly important, but it’s difficult. It takes a lot of thinking and a lot of work in advance. I don’t try to repeat a style from one site to the next.

Everything must have its own unique idea and that’s a challenge of each project. You have studied our work and you can see the variety of different ideas we have. I’m really excited about opening a project in Shanghai for the COFCO Cultural and Health Center. It’s about the formation of a big circular space and circular gardens, and it’s an idea I’ve never tried on any other project before. It was based on the philosopher Karl Popper’s text: clocks and clouds. The main public space is formed between the health building and the culture building, almost clock-like in a simple circular form, and that’s the center of the idea. Then the other parts are cloud-like. They’re cuts, they’re waving, they’re indeterminate shapes. Originally, the idea was just a watercolor sketch no bigger than B6 size, and that’s the way all the buildings start. I made this watercolor concept here in Rhinebeck and sent them to the Beijing office. Roberto, my right hand and my partner in Beijing worked out the details and saw the building through to construction. It’s going to open soon and it’s a very exciting example of how we work. I was at the site once, right in the beginning when we were hired to do the project. I was in Shanghai. I saw the site. I saw the water channel. This is the cultural building and health building for a big existing housing project. I understood the relation to this kind of really banal housing project. Then I came back and worked on it and had this idea, and it’s a reality now. I’m very proud of it because that’s an example of teamwork. It’s not just me. There are ten or twelve people in the Beijing office working carefully. And when we work, we work all the time back and forth from New York to Beijing. I followed the project all the way through every detail. In the period that we’re in, a unique idea can drive a design to a great project.

▼上海COFCO文体中心与医疗服务站概念草图 – 时钟和云朵（点击这里查看更多）
concept sketch for Shanghai COFCO Cultural and Health Center – Clocks and Clouds (click HERE to view more) ©Steven Holl

▼钟表式的圆形公共空间，clock-like circular public space ©AOG Vision

3.
您每天都会坚持画一些水彩，每个项目开始的时候您会绘制一些水彩意向图。您为何对水彩这种媒介情有独钟？从水彩草图到实际的建筑方案会经过哪些步骤和取舍？在项目开始的时候，你们会提出一些设计的关键词或目标，这些概念是怎样确定下来的？和水彩草图的关系是什么样的？
Watercolor paintings seem to be part of your daily work and also the beginning of each of your projects. What is your fascination with watercolor? What are the things kept and abandoned in the process of transforming a sketch to a real architectural scheme? When you start a project you come up with some key words or goals, how are these concepts determined? And how do these sketches relate to your concepts?

我可以将整栋建筑——包括想法、立面、平面、概念等等——全部画在一本5×7英寸的便签簿中。它仅有你的手掌大小，我可以带着它上飞机，在飞机上工作。我可以快速地记录下一些想法，如光从哪来、用什么颜色甚至纹理等，这一切仅用十五分钟就能完成。过去我曾经会画一些巨大的画作，每幅作品要画上一周。1980年开始，我转而在现在这样的小尺寸纸面上创作。如今事务所所有项目的原始概念图都是以此种形成呈现。

将草图转化成设计方案是一个发展的过程。这其中并没有什么被抛弃。它就像是一颗种子发芽，为了让它成长，你需要提供养料。你需要浇水，需要增加新的信息，需要引导。在这之前，它都仅仅是一颗概念的种子，我会随着它的发展增添更多细节。哪怕是一个很小的项目，在其进行的过程中都要考虑并添加很多细节，这可能要花费两年时间。我认为在做建筑设计的同时阅读哲学、诗歌和文学作品是十分重要的。这会让你的思想更加肥沃，产生各种各样的概念想法。有时我会把关键词写在水彩图旁边，有些时候它们会一起出现在我的脑海中。

I can put an entire building–the ideas, elevation, plan, concept, everything about the project–on a 5-by-7-inch pad. It’s very small, only the size of your hand. I can carry this on an airplane and I can work. I can go very fast with some an idea, like where the light is coming from, what might be the colors or even the textures, and I can do this in 15 minutes. I used to make these huge drawings that would take me a week. In 1980, I changed to this small size. Now I have the original drawings of every building we’ve done in this kind of format.

Transforming the sketches into architectural schemes is a development. It’s not like anything is abandoned. It’s like a seed germ. It grows and has to be nurtured. It’s like an organism and you have to water it and add more information to it and guide it. Before, it’s just a tiny seed of an idea and then as it goes on, I’m adding more details. Even in a little project, there are many details that are being thought through and added as the project progresses over time, which could take 2 years. I think the parallel reading of philosophy and poetry and literature while you’re working as an architect is very important. When you’re doing that, you fertilize your mind with different ideas. I sometimes sketch the key words down on the pad next to the watercolor, and those things sometimes come together.

▼水彩概念草图，watercolor concept sketch ©Steven Holl
（上）上海COFCO文体中心和医疗服务站，（中左）Simmons Hall，（中右）休斯顿当代艺术博物馆，（下）当代MOMA
(above) Shanghai COFCO Cultural and Health Center, (middle left) Simmons Hall, (middle right) Kinder Building Museum of Fine Arts Houston, (below) Linked Hybrid Building

4.
您在设计中十分关注人在运动中对空间的感知，即建筑的运动性。反过来，建成空间也会对人的行为产生影响。您是如何看待人对空间的基本感知和创造新的空间体验之间的关系的？
In your design you pay great attention to people’s perception of space when they are moving, or say, the movement of architecture. On the other hand, the built environment would in turn influence the users’ behavior. How do you expect the relationship between people’s basic perception of space and the creation of new spatial experiences?

建筑是空间、灯光和感知的产物。它们会尝试成为某种使用方式的催化剂，但无法决定确切的用法。我认为使用和体验取决于每个使用者自身，它们会转化和改变。如果你建造了一个很棒的空间，人们就可以用它做不同的事情。如果你创造了一个拥有高耸的天花和巨大的窗户、通风良好的美丽房间，一开始它可能是一栋住宅；之后它可以被改造成学校，因为这个空间极适合作为教室使用；它也可以是一座图书馆。我不相信现代主义倡导的“功能决定设计”的理论。我相信空间的诗意，如材料细部等，必须自成一体。功能来了又去，许多150年前的功能现在根本不复存在，因为我们的生活方式已经不一样了。建筑是一种艺术形式，就像音乐，为我们的生命带来快乐。从功能出发，由功能决定设计，对我来说是一种错误的建筑设计方式。当然，建筑必须要好用，并且设置特定的功能，但它并不是设计的决定性力量。建筑中必须有另一个概念——一个诗意的概念——来引领设计。

The buildings are offerings in space and light and perspective. They attempt to be a catalyst for how people could use them, but there’s no way to determine exact use. I think that use and human experiences are up to the individuals and they transfer and change. If you make a great space, it can be used in many different ways. If you make a beautiful room with a high enough ceiling and large enough windows and natural ventilation, that could start out as a house. It could turn into a school because it could be a great classroom. It could also be a library. I don’t believe in the modernist idea that functionality is driving the design. I believe that the poetics of space, like material details, need to stand on their own. Function comes and goes. Many functions that were going on 150 years ago are no longer exist. We’re doing things differently now. Architecture is like music. it’s an art form. It brings joy into our lives. To begin with the functional program and say that’s going to give you the design is, to me, the wrong way to approach architecture. Certainly, it must function and the program needs to be addressed, but it’s not the driving force. There needs to be another idea, a poetic idea that drives the design.

▼Steven Holl建筑事务所部分项目
Selected projects of Steven Holl Architects（more: Steven Holl Architects on gooood)

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对不同建筑元素的思考
Perspectives on various Architectural Elements

“我不认自己的风格有什么变化，一切都是因为不同的环境需要不同的设计……伟大诗歌和音乐的精神是不受纯粹目的的束缚的，这一点建筑也应该一样……建筑带给项目的并不是功能。我们想要的是新的空间。”

“I don’t think there’s a change in my style. It’s just the different circumstances that require different approaches…The spirit of poetry and the spirit of great music is free from purely objective things, and so it should be in architecture… What the architect brings to the project isn’t about program. We want new kinds of space.”

5.
请谈一谈您在设计中如何实现“无尺度性”，从而匹配不同的空间尺度和人的感知？
How could you achieve “scalelessness” in your design to match people’s perception with different spatial scales?

我最喜欢的与尺度有关的项目之一是波士顿MIT的学生宿舍楼Simmons Hall。当你从远处看向建筑整体的时候，你会觉得它十分巨大，看上去有三十层。实际上它只是一栋十层的建筑。当你走近后，你会意识到这些窗户只有两英尺高，而每间宿舍中设有九扇窗户。建筑采用预制混凝土外骨骼结构，由我和工程师Guy Nordenson共同开发。它使得人们难以辨认建筑的真实大小，而这种神秘性正是项目的乐趣所在。实际上，学生们为这栋建筑编排了一出歌剧叫作“O Spongy-Sponge”。如果你到油管上搜索，还可以看到其他一些学生录制的有关该建筑的视频。它是一座包含350个房间的宿舍楼，有350名学生在里面生活。这是概念引领设计的又一个案例，形成了一种愉悦的、近乎诗意的存在。它关乎结构、关乎每个房间的自然采光和通风，比起一到两扇窗户，我们用九扇窗户实现了设计的目标。如今建筑已经建成了二十年，依然运营良好，看上去依旧美丽。如果你到波士顿去，请务必参观一下这栋建筑，它是展示我认为“建筑可以做什么”的优秀案例之一。

One of my favorite projects in terms of scale is the MIT dormitory Simmons Hall in Boston. When you look at the building as a whole from a distance, it looks very large. It looks like thirty stories, but it’s only ten stories. When you get up close, you realize that the windows are only two feet high and every room has nine windows. The building is a precast concrete exoskeleton structure that I developed with Guy Nordenson, the engineer. It also achieves a very mysterious reading of how big it is, and I think that mystery is really something joyful. In fact, the students have made an opera called “O Spongy-Sponge”. If you go on YouTube, you can see several student videos about the building. It’s a dormitory with 350 rooms with 350 students living there. That’s an example of me having another idea that drives the design and becomes a kind of joyful, almost poetic existence. It’s about the structure and it’s about natural light in every room and ventilation, but nine windows instead of one or two windows. The building is 20 years old and it’s holding up very well, and still looks beautiful today. If you go to Boston, please visit that building. That’s an example of what I think architecture can do.

▼Simmons Hall外观，external view of Simmons Hall ©Andy Ryan

▼（左）透过雨棚上的开口仰望Simmons Hall，(left) look up at Simmons Hall through the openings on the awning ©Paul Warchol
（右）Simmons Hall内部公共空间，(right) public space in Simmons Hall ©Andy Ryan

6.
光是您最为关注的建筑元素之一。您认为光对于空间塑造的意义是什么？对于不同尺度项目中光环境的营造会有哪些不同的考量？
Light is one of the key architectural elements you focus on. What do you think is the significance of light in shaping a space? How do you consider for the creation of light environment in projects of different scales?

我们刚刚完成的休斯顿现代艺术博物馆是以德克萨斯的天空和云朵、以及如何将光线引入建筑为基础设计的。我将建筑顶部称为发光天蓬，阳光可以从裂缝处照入，通过云朵一般的结构底部散射到空间之中。在这栋建筑中，光极为重要。我认为在每个博物馆项目中，提供自然光照都是一项十分重要的工作。整栋建筑都被包裹在直径为30英寸的发光玻璃管之中，我们称之为“保冷夹克”。它们吸收德州的阳光，将热空气向上引过建筑。这是一个能源概念，可以减少90%的太阳辐射。但你在晚上看向建筑的时候，它们又成为了发光管，也体现了光的概念。

We just finished the Museum of Fine Arts in Huston, which is based on the big Texas sky and clouds and how light could come in. I called the top of the building a luminous canopy where light comes in through the cracks and slides across the bottom of these cloud-like formations. Light is very important in that building, and I think in every museum that you make the possibility of natural light is very important. The entire building is enclosed in light glowing glass tubes that are 30 inches in diameter, and they’re called a “cold jacket”. They take the Texas sunlight and draw the hot air up across the building. This is an energy idea and it reduces the solar gain by 90 %. When you look at the building at night, these glowing tubes are also about the light.

▼休斯顿现代艺术博物馆外观（点击这里查看更多）
external view of the Kinder Building Museum of Fine Arts Houston (click HERE to view more) ©Iwan Baan

▼夜景，灯光透过立面玻璃管照出，night view, light glowing out through the glass tubes on the facade ©Iwan Baan

▼大厅，阳光通过弧形屋顶照入室内，lobby, sunlight pouring into the interior through curved roofs ©Iwan Baan

二十年前，我在意大利Cassino设计了一个博物馆，名叫“光的刻度”。整栋建筑都是关于光线如何以不同方式进入画廊空间。现在，业主们正在考虑集资将其建成，并且会于10月21日在Cassino开会商讨此事。我在22年前设计了这栋建筑，但这并不成问题，因为我没有某种一定要合乎潮流的风格。在建筑领域，人们在赶各种各样的风潮，你甚至可以通过照片中来来去去的不同风格来判断建筑的年代。但这并不是我的工作方式，这也是为什么现在我可以对一栋22年前设计的建筑说：“是的，我希望建造它，按照当初我画的那样即可。”

I designed a museum in Cassino, Italy over 20 years ago, which I called a “score of light”. The whole building was just about strips of light that enter the galleries in different ways. It was never built, but now the clients are thinking to fund this building and build it, and they’re going to have a meeting in the town of Cassino. I designed it 22 years ago, but it doesn’t matter. I don’t have a style that has to be in fashion. In architecture, you have all these fashions that people are doing. You can even tell the time of architecture by looking at pictures of different styles that come and go. I’m not working that way. That’s why I can take a building that I did 22 years ago and say: “Yes, I want to build it, just the way I drew it then.”

▼Cassino博物馆设计草图，design sketch for Museo Cassino ©Steven Holl

▼不同空间的不同光照效果，different lighting effects in different spaces ©Steven Holl Architects

光的设计必然要根据尺度而变化。对于城市光照来说，你不能将摩天楼盖得太近，这实在是一个错误。我们必须将光线带到街道中。我在成都的项目名为切片多孔街区，其中所有的设计手段都是为了将阳光带到街道和相邻的住宅中。我们通过太阳角切割建筑，获得了其最终的形状。项目中部有一个公共空间，其中设有水花园。

对我来说，城市光照极其重要。在纽约，这是一场灾难。在Hudson Yards，建筑彼此之间的距离过小，使得空间常年在阴影之中。那里没有一点阳光，是未来城市的一个可怕反例。它仅仅是开发商贪婪的产物。我希望世界中的人们不要学习这种例子。Hudson Yards就和我的办公室隔一个街区。它或许是你能建造的最糟糕的城市形式。那里没有足够的阳光，而光对于城市来说是极为重要的元素！

Absolutely the design of light should change with the scale. What I would say about urban light is that you should not build skyscrapers too close together. This is really a mistake. We must bring light to the street. My project in Chengdu called Sliced Porosity Block is all about bringing the sunlight to the street and to the adjacent houses. The building is sliced by the diagram of the angle of the sun. That’s how it gets its shape. It has a public space in the center with water gardens.

To me, urban light is very important. In New York, it’s a disaster. In Hudson Yards, they build the buildings too close together, and they are always in shadow. There’s no sunlight. It’s a terrible example of future urbanism. It’s all about developer’s greed. I just hope that people around the world don’t follow that kind of example. Hudson Yards is right across the street from my office. It’s probably the worst urban form that you could make. Too close together, not enough light. Light is very important in the city!

▼成都来福士项目设计草图，打破传统高楼模式
design sketch of the Sliced Porosity Block ©Steven Holl

▼项目外观，external view of the project ©Shu He

▼阳光可以照射到中部的公共空间，sunlight could reach the public space in the center ©Iwan Baan

7.
我们观察到在您的职业生涯早期经常使用厚重的材料以及颜色，比如砖块或者木头。您近期作品中经常使用的透明和半透明的材质，更多的浅色出现在作品中，请问您对材料与色彩选择上的转变是为什么呢？
We noticed that you used to prefer heavy materials and colors in your early projects, like brick or wood, but in your recent works we find more transparent and translucent materials, as well as a lighter color palette. What has caused the changes in your choice of materials and colors?

正如我前面说过的，我们的每个项目各不相同。在德克萨斯，我需要保冷夹克让建筑免受烈日灼烤。夹克的后面是混凝土结构，在水花园的位置我会让混凝土结构暴露在外。这仅仅是根据场地条件做出的不同判断。我依然喜欢自己设计的St. Ignatius礼拜堂，它由平浇混凝土建成。与前者相比，它处于全然不同的气候之中，需要的功能也完全不一样。我不认自己的风格有什么变化，一切都只是因为不同的环境需要不同的设计。

As I said, each project is different. In Texas, I needed this cold jacket to take the hot sun off the building. There’s a concrete structure behind it and I expose the concrete at the water gardens. It’s just a matter of the situation. I still love my Chapel of St. Ignatius, which is all made out of tilt up concrete. That’s a very different climate and a very different program need. I don’t think there’s a change in my style. It’s just the different circumstances that require different approaches.

▼休斯顿当代艺术博物馆，立面面向花园的部分混凝土裸露在外（点击这里查看更多）
Kinder Building Museum of Fine Arts Houston, concrete exposed to the garden side (click HERE to view more) ©Richard Barnes

▼St. Ignatius教堂，由混凝土浇筑而成，Chapel of St. Ignatius made of tilt-up concrete ©Steven Holl Architects

▼礼拜堂室内，interior space of the chapel ©Steven Holl Architects

8.
在你的设计中经常会出现下凹的屋顶和弯曲的墙面，如Franklin & Marshall学院冬季视觉艺术楼，上海Cofco文体中心和医疗服务站，令人不禁联想到“帐篷”这一原始的意象。为什么采用这样的建筑形式？你如何看待形式？
Concave roofs and curved walls are often found in your projects, such as the Franklin & Marshall Lancaster Winter Visual Arts Building and Shanghai COFCO Cultural and Health Center, which evoke the original image of a “tent”. Why do you use this architectural form in your design? What is your perspective on form?

问题中提到的两个项目使用的概念十分不同。在Franklin & Marshall大学项目中，校园中有巨大的树木，树干直径达3~4英尺。有一张概念草图反映了如果你围绕树木的滴灌线画圈，就会得到这些凹进的形态。建筑的形状实际上是根据树木的位置确定的，这些弧线是平面的，并且与树木的概念相关。建筑本身如同风筝一般升在空中，你可以透过架空的底部看到布坎南公园。COFCO是一个截然不同的项目，其概念是“钟和云”。建筑的弧线切口给人以仰望天空的感觉。你可以透过云朵之间的空洞看到掠过的蓝天。这种弧线的几何类型与前者不同，它不是平面的，而是三维的。

The two examples are very different ideas. In the case of the Franklin & Marshall College, there are giant trees on the campus that are 3 or 4 feet in diameter. There’s a concept drawing showing that if you draw a circle around the drip line of those trees, it would cause these concave shapes. The building was actually shaped from the position of the trees. These shapes are all planimetric and are all related to the concept of the trees. The building itself is raised up in the air like a kite. You can see underneath it to the Buchanan Park. The case of COFCO is completely different with the idea is “clocks and clouds”. Those curves are cuts almost like looking up at the sky. You see holes in the clouds and you can see the blue sky coming through. That’s a very different curve type geometry. It’s not planimetric. It’s in three dimensions.

▼Franklin & Marshall大学设计草图，立面根据树木的滴灌线凹进（点击这里查看更多）
design sketch for Franklin & Marshall Winter Visual Arts Building, the drip line of the trees causing the concave shapes (click HERE to view more) ©Steven Holl

▼建筑外观，external view of the project ©Paul Warchol

▼树木与立面，trees and the facade ©Paul Warchol

9.
Ex of In House是一个探索“IN”的项目，通过挖去数个球体形成空间，这一手法也在Obolin装置中有所体现。这样的设计对于传统建筑空间有哪些颠覆？这个项目里，您提到让建筑从目的中脱离出来（architecture free from purely objective），能否介绍一下您对此的理解？
Ex of In House is a project that explores “IN”, whose geometry is formed from spherical spaces intersecting with tesseract trapezoids, and this kind of method is also reflected in the design of OBOLIN. How does this strategy subvert a traditional architectural space? In the exploration of “IN” you also mentioned to “study architecture free from purely objective”. Could you please explain your understanding of this statement?

我对这些问题感到惊讶，它们充满了热情。你说对了。我在设计OBOLIN这个雕塑时，脑海中确实想到了同样的圆形切面，与EX of In House的设计概念类似。不过，OBOLIN在某个层面上与EX of In House十分不同。它是一次在CLT建造方面的实验，其结构和表皮是一体的，由机器人从厚重的CLT材料中切割建造而成。我们采用圆形切面以确认机器可以将概念图纸推进到何种程度。OBOLIN体量不大，完全是一座实验雕塑。不管怎么说，这个问题很敏锐，因为这确实是两个在不同地方使用了几乎同一个概念的项目。（这某种程度上与我前面说到的你必须为每个项目想一个新的概念相悖，因为我自己在这里也没有真正做到）EX of In House与OBOLIN的概念相同，但是它使用的是不同的材料。此外，OBOLIN是一个雕塑，在Art Omi的展出结束后，它将被移到我们在Rhinebeck的雕塑花园，安装在EX of In House的旁边。

I’m amazed at these questions, they’re so keen. You’re right on. When I did Obolin as a sculpture, the same spherical intersections are going on in my mind. So it’s like the idea driving the Ex of In House. However, Obolin is very different on one level. It was an experiment in CLT construction. That means the structure, the skin, is all monolithic. It’s cut from thick CLT and all built by robots. We were taking the spherical intersections to see how far we could push the machines to parallel the idea of the drawing. Obolin is a total experimental piece of sculpture and it’s not very big. Anyway, the question is smart because that’s almost the same idea in two different places. (That kind of goes against what I said earlier that you have to have a new idea for every project, because I didn’t really do that here.) Ex of In House uses the same idea as Obolin, but it’s a different material. Also, Obolin is a piece of sculpture. It’s going to be moved here after its exhibition at Art Omi closes. We have a sculpture garden here in Rhinebeck so in the future, it’ll be installed next to the Ex of In House.

▼Obolin设计草图（点击这里查看更多）
design sketch for Obolin (click HERE to view more) ©Steven Holl

▼Obolin雕塑外观，external view of the sculpture Obolin ©Steven Holl Architects

▼CLT切割制成的装置，structure cut from thick CLT ©Steven Holl Architects

伟大诗歌和音乐的精神是不受纯粹目的的束缚的，这一点建筑也应该一样。它回到了我之前的宣言，正如路易斯·康所说，功能不过是“许多香蕉”而已。建筑带给项目的并不是功能。我们想要的是新的空间。多年前，我记得Giorgio Grassi写道：“architecture, è lingua morta”，建筑是一种已经死亡的语言。许多建筑师也会说：“我们不会发明任何事物。我们仅仅是在重复。”我完全不认同这些说法。我相信我们一直在创造。这是人性的创造本质所在。我们将会为乐观的未来开辟出一条道路。我们拥有摆脱化石燃料和污染物的技术手段。我们缺少的是意愿，或者说是政治意愿。我们可以利用自然可回收的能源为整个地球提供能量，把所有石油留在地下，不再使用化石燃料以让环境变得更好。我们有手段，但没有意愿。我相信未来，它取决于我们的创造力，更取决于我们做出改变的决心。

The spirit of poetry and the spirit of great music is free from purely objective things, and so it should be in architecture. It goes back to my statement, like Louis Kahn said, that program is just “so many bananas”. What the architect brings to the project isn’t about program. We want new kinds of space. I believe in architecture. It’s inventive and it has a future. Years ago I remember Giorgio Grassi wrote “architecture, è lingua morta”, architecture is a dead language, and many architects have said: “We don’t invent anything. We just repeat.” I don’t believe that at all. I believe we constantly invent. That’s what the creative essence of humanity is. We are going to invent our way into an optimistic future. I think we have the means to get rid of fossil fuels and to get rid of pollutants. We don’t have the will or the political will yet, but we have the technology. We can power the entire globe with natural renewable energies, leave all the oil in the ground and get rid of fossil fuels and make the atmosphere better. We have the means to do this. We do not have the will. I believe in the future. It depends on our creative abilities, but it mainly depends on changing the will.

▼Ex of In House设计草图（点击这里查看更多）
design sketch for Exof In House (click HERE to view more) ©Steven Holl

▼建筑外观，external view of the building ©Iwan Baan

▼用不同的方式创造新的空间，create new space through different methods ©Iwan Baan

我欣赏中国的一点是，我们可以在这里建造十分绿色的建筑。当代MOMA项目里，我们建造了660座100米深的地热井，调节所有750个居住单元的温度。它之所以能实现，是因为业主想这么做。在美国，我需要与业主斗争才可能实现生态方面的设想。一旦你建造了这样的建筑并且它确实管用，你便可以证明它的有效性，进而说服怀疑的业主。

One of the things that I most appreciate in China is that we’ve been able to do very green buildings. The Linked Hybrid Building has 660 geothermal wells 100 meters deep that heat and cool the entire 750 apartments. That was because the client wanted it. Here in America, I often have to fight to get the ecological dimension. However, I think once you build it and it works, you can prove it and you can go forward from there even with skeptical clients.

▼成都来福士中的生态设计分析，analysis of the ecological design in the Sliced Porosity Block ©Steven Holl Architects

▼当代MOMA中的生态空间，ecological space in the Linked Hybrid Building ©上：Iwan Baan，下：Shu He

_______________
中国实践和地域性设计
Practice in China and Regionalism Design

“你必须依据历史或其他更有深度的概念，找到一种新的方式去表达，与所在的地域和文化形成了一种抽象的、概念上的关系……建筑并不是越大才越重要。”

“You should design with historical ideas or other more in-depth ideas and find a new way to express them, creating a conceptual relationship to the region and its culture…I don’t think architecture has to be large to be important.”

10.
南京的四方美术馆使用了中国传统绘画的“散点透视”；天津生态城生态与规划博物馆的两栋建筑中实体与减去的空间互补，体现了“阴阳八卦”的理念。您是如何将传统文化转译到自己的设计概念之中的？现代建筑如何体现地域和文化？
In Nanjing Sifang Art Museum, you used the concept of “scattered perspectives” of traditional Chinese Painting. In the project of the Ecology and Planning Museums in Tianjin Ecocity, the Ecology Museum is conceived as a reversal of space carved out from the Planning Museum, indicating the Chinese concept of “Ba Gua” and “Yin Yang”. How do you usually interpret traditional culture into your design concept? How could modern architecture embody regionalism and culture?

2002年我在考察南京美术馆项目的基地时，获得了当时的合伙人李虎和张永和的帮助。这是一座没有藏品的美术馆，我希望以中国绘画中的某些原则作为设计的基础。散点透视的概念来自于那些没有消失点的长卷画作。在绘制最早的草图时，张永和和李虎和我一同工作。我们三人中有两人是土生土长的中国人。

在天津生态城中，“八卦”和“阴阳”的概念是一场实验。我们绘制了所有的工作图纸，建筑也即将进入建造阶段。我们还制作了一比一的白砖和喷砂不锈钢模型。然而当我们再次去到基地时，我们发现原来生态城的负责人被换掉了，而新的负责人拒绝和我见面。我们在这个项目上工作了许多年，完成了两栋建筑的所有图纸，巨大的模型也依旧保存在工作室的档案馆中。这是建筑被政治的一时兴起操控的一个案例。某种程度上这是一场悲剧，但我很高兴你们还记得这个项目。真希望它能被建成。

In the case of the Nanjing Museum, I was helped by Li Hu, my partner at the time and Yung Ho Chang when I went to the site in 2002. This is a museum that doesn’t have a collection, but I wanted to base it on some principles of Chinese painting. The idea of parallel perspective derived from scroll paintings that don’t have a vanishing point. Yung Ho Chang and Li Hu worked with me when I was making the first sketches. There was a team of three and two were born in China and culturally Chinese.

In the case of Tianjin Ecocity, the concept of “Ba Gua” and “Yin Yang” was an experiment. We did all the working drawings and that building was ready to be built. There were full scale mock ups of the white tiles and the sandblasted stainless steel. However, when I went to the site, I found that they had removed the director of the Ecocity and put in another director who refused to meet with me. We worked on this project for many years and all the working drawings were finished for these two buildings. I still have the huge models in our studio’s archive. That’s an example of how architecture is at the whim of political manipulation. It’s kind of tragic but I’m glad you remember that project. I wish it would have been built.

▼南京四方美术馆设计草图，design sketch for Nanjing Sifang Art Museum ©Steven Holl

▼天津生态城博物馆设计草图，design sketch for Tianjin Ecocity Museum ©Steven Holl

我认为不能刻板地建造地域性的几何图像。你必须依据历史概念、或其他更有深度的、可以体现特定原则的概念进行设计，找到一种新的方式去表达。天津生态博物馆项目里，我们以全新的形式演绎了“八卦”和“阴阳”的概念。两栋建筑相互关联，拥有令人惊讶的内部空间。它们与其所在的地域和文化形成了一种抽象的、概念上的关系。

I think you should not make literal images of geometry that are regional. You should design with historical ideas or other more in-depth ideas that could embody certain principles and find a new way to express them. I think the “Ba Gua” and “Yin Yang” of the Tianjin Ecology Museum does that in totally new shapes. The two buildings were in relation to one another with great interiors and amazing spaces and a relationship–not a literal relationship, but a conceptual relationship to the region and its culture.

▼以新的形式演绎“八卦”概念，interpret the idea of “Bau Gua” in a new way ©Steven Holl Architects

11.
深圳iCarbonX总部综合体利用坡道和连桥将花园带到了建筑的各个标高，体现了生态设计的理念。环境保护与修复也是您关注的议题之一，怎样能够创造更加生态化的城市建筑，让人造环境与自然长久共存？
In Shenzhen iCarbonX Headquarters, ramps and bridges brought gardens to various heights of the building, reflecting the concept of ecological design. Environment preservation and restoration is also one of the topics you concern. How do you think people are able to create urban architecture with higher ecological quality that allows the man-made environment coexist with the nature for long?

这是一个十分重要的挑战。我们必须找到一些方式来保护和修复地球的自然环境，在更好的生态框架下建造我们的城市，设置更多绿色空间。我一直在进行一场题为“空气/光/绿地：后新冠建筑”的讲座，其中涉及让自然光照射到每个空间，设置开窗以带来自然通风，地热供暖和制冷，循环用水，有青蛙和乌龟的水花园，以及在花园中和我们共存的动物，等等。我在Rhinebeck Round Lake地区的每个项目里都设置了一个青蛙池塘。我将雨水从屋顶引到回收水池，那里生活着乌龟和青蛙。因为它们以蚊子为食，因此我们可以免受蚊虫困扰。冬天水池结冰，青蛙在池底冬眠。当春天天气回暖冰块融化，它们又重新浮出了水面。这便是生命的循环，人们可以在任何项目中做出这样的微小尝试。我希望能够在城市中看到越来越多的生态发明，并且在城市尺度上加强对自然景观的保护。

That’s a very important challenge and I think we have to find ways that we can restore the natural landscape and preserve it, especially globally, and build our cities with better ecological frames with green spaces. I’ve been giving this lecture “Air/Light/Greenspace: Post-COVID Architecture”, talking about natural light to all spaces, windows that open for natural ventilation, geothermal heating and cooling, recycled water, water gardens that have frogs and turtles, and animals in our gardens we coexist with. In every project that I’ve done in Round Lake vicinity here in Rhinebeck has a frog pond. I bring the rainwater from the roof, and lead it into a recycled water pond, where turtles and frogs live. Because they eat the mosquito, we don’t have problem with mosquitoes. In the winter time it freezes, the frogs are underneath. When the water melts up, the frogs come out in the spring again. It’s a cycle of life and that’s a miniature thing that you can do in any project. I’d like to see more ecological invention in the city and at an urban scale, and more preservation of the natural landscape.

▼深圳iCarbonX总部综合体设计草图（点击这里查看更多）
design sketch for Shenzhen iCarbonX Headquarters (click HERE to view more) ©Steven Holl

▼花园穿插在建筑之中，gardens spreading throughout the building ©Steven Holl Architects

12.
在中国的所有项目中，最令您满意的一个项目是什么？为什么？您如何看待中国目前的建筑行业？
Among all of your projects in China, what is the one that you are most satisfied with? And why? What do you think of the current architectural industry in China?

我对如今中国的建筑行业持批判的态度。我们没有必要推倒历史建筑来建造新项目。我们可以让历史建筑和新建筑共存。我认为此类在开发商主导的项目里出现的破坏是不正确的。我们应该认真思考如何能够将新建筑建在老建筑旁边，实现回收、再利用和共存。一栋小建筑和一栋高楼并肩而立有什么问题呢？原始的老建筑是可以和吸纳进驻共存的。比起拆除历史建筑，新旧并存要有趣得多。

我最喜欢的中国项目是南京四方美术馆，因为它是我在中国的第一个设计。当时是2002年，在那之前我从来没有在中国实践过。我对于过去19年间有机会在中国建造一些出色的项目心怀感激。我与Yung Ho Chang和Li Hu一起考察了南京项目的基地，想出了这个与中国古代的水墨画紧密相连的概念，并共同进行了深化开发。南京的许多胡同正在被拆除，我们回收了胡同中的砖材，将其运用在了这个项目中。如果你去到那里，你会看到地面了采用人字形铺设的灰砖，它们都是从被拆除的胡同建筑中回收而来的。项目中还设有水花园，所有自然降水都会流入到这里并被收集起来。墙面体现了散点透视的概念，它们均由竹模混凝土制成，而制作模具用的竹子都来自基地。我在2002年有了这个想法，之后花了10年时间才将其建成。我认为这座位于南京的小小美术馆展现了我在不同方面的设计理念，为此我感到十分自豪。我认为建筑并不是越大才越重要。

I’m critical of the current architectural industry in China. We don’t need to tear down the historic buildings in order to build new things. We could make them coexist with the new. I’m critical of this sort of destruction that goes on in the developer driven projects. I think that we should be carefully thinking about how we can recycle, reuse, coexist, and bring the new next to the old. What’s wrong with a small building and a tall building? The original older building can coexist with the new building. It’s much more interesting to have the history coexist with the new.

I think my favorite building is my Nanjing Nuseum because it was the first design I did in China. It was 2002 and I’d never done anything in China. I am so grateful for the chance to build great things in China over these last 19 years. I went to the site with Yung Ho Chang and Li Hu. We came up with this idea that I feel is deeply connecting to ancient watercolors and artwork of China. Then when we developed it, we put recycled bricks from the Hutongs on the courtyards, which were being torn down in Nanjing. If you go there, you’ll see all the paving is in a herringbone pattern of these gray bricks that were saved from the torn down Hutong houses in Nanjing. Then there’s a water garden where all the natural water comes and collects. The idea of the parallel perspective is in the walls and all the walls are done in bamboo formed concrete. I got the bamboo from the site. I had that idea in 2002 and it took 10 years to build it. I really think that my little museum in Nanjing is an example of so many different dimensions and I’m very proud of that. I don’t think architecture has to be large to be important.

▼南京四方美术馆，Nanjing Sifang Art Museum ©Shu He

_______________
信息时代下的建筑学习
Study Architecture in the Era of Information

“不要看图片，要看空间……利用现在这段时间，深入挖掘技术带给我们的种种可能。”

“Don’t look at pictures, look at space…Take the lock down as an advantage to look deeply into what’s available because of our technology.”

13.
您认为建筑系学生不能通过媒体真正理解建筑。在疫情的影响下，许多外出活动受到限制，相应产生了更多通过网络媒体建立关联的方式。在这样的条件下，学生应该如何磨炼自己对建筑的理解和感知能力？
You once said that “architecture is always much more when you experience than when you look at photographs or images” and suggested the students to turn off the computer and visit the real sites. However, under the impact of the pandemic, as many outdoor activities are restricted, it has generated more ways to build connections through the internet. Under such conditions, how should architectural students improve their abilities to understand and perceive architecture?

他们可以看视频学习。我有一个关于南京美术馆的视频，完整解释了散点透视的设计概念。在看视频的时候，你可以看到人们走过这些墙壁，空间在他们面前展开（点击这里观看视频）。总而言之，不要看图片，要看空间，这点可以通过观看视频实现。顺带一提，如果你想通过视频学习我的项目，Vimeo上有超过十六个关于我的项目的短片。你可以花上几周时间看看他们，这比只看照片要有用很多。首先，我在视频中解释了项目的概念；之后你可以看到人们在空间中的运动。这是视频这种载体的优势所在。

在疫情时期，我们应该充分使用过去20年间开发的各项技术。这样我们依旧可以大量学习。等到这种情况结束，我们就能再次去现场参观。也许到时候我们就会考虑得更加周密，决定好特定的目的地，而不是在世界中随机游荡。我认为最近开发的关于空间的四维影像也可以帮助我们学到很多知识。也许你可以在书本和文章中研究平面和剖面。但是视频通常会清晰地传达一个概念，你也可以在其中掌握一些对于空间的感受。有一个视频记录了2013年我在哥伦比亚大学为Campbell运动中心开幕做的讲座，名为“Drawing as Thought”。这场讲座在Youtube上有超过80000次观看。我出过许多书，但是从来没有哪版印刷了80000份。一本建筑书籍大概只有5000，最多不超过10000的印刷量。你需要理解自己可以获得的技术。如果你有一个想法希望和别人交流，你可以通过一个50分钟的视频将这个想法传达给80000个人。因此，我会鼓励那些当下不能游学的学生们仔细搜集手头可用的资源。现在有许多现成的材料。以前你从未看过的老讲座被重新上传到了Youtube，有路易斯·康的，也有柯布西耶的，你可以借此迈入伟大的建筑历史。建议大家利用现在这段时间，深入挖掘技术带给我们的种种可能。

By watching videos. I have a video of the Nanjing Museum that totally explains this parallel perspective. When you’re watching the video, you can see people walking through these walls and you can see the space unfolds (click HERE to watch the video). So don’t look at pictures, look at space, and you can do that by looking at videos. By the way, if you want to study my work through videos, I have over 16 videos of my projects on Vimeo. You could just spend a couple of weeks looking and it’s much better than looking at photographs. First of all, I explain the concept. Then you can see the movement through the space because of the video format.

In the time of the pandemic, we should use the technology that we’ve developed in the last 20 years to the fullest. I think we can still learn a lot. Once this is over, we can go and visit again. Perhaps it’s a time to be more philosophical and decide where you want to go. Don’t just randomly fly around the world. I think there’s a lot that can be learned by watching four dimensional videos of spaces that have been built recently. Maybe you can study the plans and sections and texts in books. But through the videos, you get some sense of space and usually an idea is articulated. I have a video of my lecture in 2013. It was the opening of the Campbell Sports Center at Columbia University and the lecture is called “Drawing as Thought”. There are over 80,000 views of that lecture on YouTube. I’ve done a lot of books, but I’ve never published an edition that was printed in 80,000. Maybe 5,000, maybe 10,000 maximum for a book of architecture. You have to understand the technology you can reach. If you have an idea that you want to communicate, you can reach 80,000 people in a 50-minute video, and you can get these ideas across. So I would encourage the students today who can’t travel to look carefully at what’s available. There’s a lot of material available now. Old lectures that you could never see before have been reposted on YouTube with Louis Kahn or Le Corbusier speaking, and the great history of architecture that can be accessed now. Take that as an advantage to look deeply that what’s available because of our technology.

▼部分Steven Holl的项目介绍视频，part of the videos introducing Steven Holl’s projects

Steven Holl Architects的Vimeo主页：https://vimeo.com/stevenhollarchitects
Homepage of Steven Holl Architects on Vimeo: https://vimeo.com/stevenhollarchitects

________
建筑与未来
Architecture and Future

“建筑师必须保持乐观。我相信我们拥有未来，我们可以创造未来。”

“I think architects have to be optimistic. I do believe that we have a future that we can create.”

14.
目前你正在进行哪些有趣的项目？
Could you introduce some interesting projects that you are currently working on?

我们正在温哥华为儿童设计一所日托中心。我对此充满热情，因为我有一个五岁半的女儿和一个一岁半的儿子，今天早上我刚送女儿去了幼儿园。我很高兴可以有机会建造一座日托中心。此外捷克的Ostrava音乐厅项目也在进行中。曾经有人问我：“Steven，如果让你选择的话，你想要建什么？”我回答道：“音乐厅。”所以我对于能在Ostrava建造一座音乐厅感到十分激动。同时进行的还有都柏林University College创意设计中心项目，它是通往大学校园的入口。这所大学是伟大作家James Joyce的母校，他创作了《尤利西斯》《芬尼根守灵夜》等优秀的作品。我们以他作为这栋建筑的部分灵感来源。这是三个正在进行中的项目，它们都非常令人激动。

We’re working on a daycare center in Vancouver for children. I’m very keen because I have a five-and-a-half-year-old daughter who I just took to kindergarten this morning. And I have a one-and-a-half-year-old son. So I’m very excited to be working on a daycare center. Then we’re working on the Ostrava Concert Hall in the Czech Republic. That’s a 1,300 seat concert hall. Someone once asked me: “Steven, if you could choose anything, what would you like to build?” And I said: “A concert hall.” So I’m very excited that we’re building a concert hall in Ostrava. And we’re doing the University College Dublin Creative Design Centre, which is the entrance to the University where James Joyce attended, the great author of Ulysses and Finnegans Wake. He graduated from there and some of the ideas in our building come from Joyce. Those are three things that are ongoing and they are all very exciting.

▼Ostrava音乐厅设计草图（点击这里查看更多）
design sketch for Ostrava Concert Hall (click HERE to view more) ©Steven Holl

▼音乐厅外观和室内效果图，appearance and interior of the concert hall ©Steven Holl Architects

▼都柏林University College创意设计中心设计草图（点击这里查看更多）
design sketch for the University College Dublin Creative Design Centre (click HERE to view more) ©Steven Holl

▼创意设计中心外观和室内效果图，appearance and interior of the Creative Design Centre ©Steven Holl Architects

15.
未来您有哪些希望继续探索和尝试的领域和议题？
What other fields and topics would you like to explore in the future?

我想探寻建筑中深层的哲学联系。如何看待人类在这颗星球上的生活？如何认识生物多样性的重要性？作为建筑师，我们能否做到？我认为答案是肯定的，正如我的青蛙池塘这一小小范例所示。物种灭绝对于我们居住的星球来说是一个危机，而两栖动物是这个过程中受到影响最大的物种，包括青蛙、蝾螈等等。目前我一共建造了五个青蛙池塘，里面住满了青蛙，也吸引了蝾螈前来。正是以这种微小的方式，我提出了我们在这个星球上面临的最大问题，即如何保护自然物种，维持生态多样性，修复栖息地等。1990年代在Edge of a City项目中，我谈论了废弃的城郊空间，提出在那些荒废的购物中心和停车场中建造新的城市环境，刮除曾经的人造建筑，重新种植树木、创造森林。30年过去了，这个项目如今依然适用。

A deeper philosophical connection in architecture. How could it be thought of in terms of the life of humanity on this planet? How can we think about biodiversity as a very crucial thing? As architects, can we? I think we can, as in my little example of the frog ponds. The extinction of species is one crisis of our planet, and amphibians are one of the most endangered species, frogs, salamanders, etc. I think I have built five frog ponds now and they are full of frogs, and salamanders come around there too. In this tiny way, I’m addressing one of the gigantic problems that we face on this planet, which is the preservation of natural species and biodiversity, habitat restoration and protection. When I worked on my project called Edge of a City in 1990s, I was talking about the spoiled suburbs and building dense packs, new urban environments, scraping off and replanting and reinforcing reforestation in those awful shopping centers or parking lots that weren’t usable. That project from 30 years ago is still valid now.

▼青蛙池塘，微型生态设计尝试，frog pond, a micro experiment on ecological design ©Steven Holl Architects

▼Edge of a City ©Steven Holl

未来，建筑师必须保持乐观。当今世界充满了悲观情绪。作为未来事物的建造者和创造者，最关键的一点是你必须培养乐观的想法。我相信我们拥有未来，我们可以创造未来。

In the future, I think architects have to be optimistic. The world is full of pessimists today. As a builder and a creator of future things, one of the key things is that you need to cultivate optimistic ideas. I do believe that we have a future that we can create.

More: Steven Holl Architects
Steven Holl Architects on gooood

▼视频，video（采访全文见下方文字。视频为4分钟精华版，建议选择高清1080p观看。）
Youtube link：https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WEJdnP1cFM

1. 请介绍一下Steven Holl事务所在北成立分部的契机和经过。事务所在中国中标的许多项目规模巨大，作为一个小团队是如何保证每个项目能够顺利进行的？
Could you please introduce the story of founding the Beijing office of Steven Holl Architects? Many of your winning projects in China are large in scale, how do you ensure that each project could be processed smoothly when working as a small team?

北京办公室成立于2006年，已经经过了15年时光。当时的工作地点和现在一样，为的是与当代MOMA项目的顾问团队合作，监控整个项目的设计深化过程，随后跟进施工管理，这对于我们来说帮助很大。虽然当代MOMA不是我们在中国的第一个项目，却是我们在中国的第一个大(规模的)项目。我们在中国的第一个项目是南京的四方美术馆，也是由北京办公室负责管理。在北京设置办公室十分有益，我们能够在任何时间和业主见面，了解项目的真实进展。

Steven Holl的事务所中，约有80%的项目分布在世界各地。尽管我们已经习惯了在不同环境里和不同的团队合作，但还是需要不断学习。2006年到2010年在北京设立办公室的这段时间，是我们在中国以公司形式运营的成型阶段，让我们获益良多。要问我们如何管理这些巨型项目？这就是我们在北京成立办公室的原因，也是我在这里的原因。我喜欢在这里与业主、股东、规划局以及施工团队交流，掌握每个股东在项目中的优先诉求，了解如何最好地与他们合作。这项工作让我和我们的公司能够获得更加平衡的视野，从而实现巨大的成功。我们对于自己的项目充满野心，每个项目对我们来说都独特而珍贵。在北京设立办公室是我们实现高品质设计的最佳工具。

We established the office in 2006 in this same space—and we’ve been here for 15 years now—to oversee the design development and our collaboration with consultants for the Linked Hybrid Project, the third phase of the MOMA project. After that, to oversee the construction process of it, which was very helpful for us. It was not our first project in China, but it was the first large project. The first one was the Sifang Museum, which we also managed from here. It was helpful to have a base here in Beijing, to be able to meet the clients at any given time and learn how things are really done here.

At any given moment in our firm, about 80% of our projects are international. Although we’re very used to working in different environments with different teams, we always go through a learning process. I think establishing the office here, from 2006 to 2010, was a very useful and formational process for us as a company. How do we manage these large projects? That’s why we have the office. That’s why I’m here. I enjoy being here and being the interface with the clients, with all the stakeholders, with planning department, and with the construction teams, and to understand how to best collaborate with them, understand the prerogative that each one of these stakeholders has in the projects that we’re doing. It allows me and the company to have a more balanced view and try to achieve this great success. We’re very ambitious in our projects, our projects are very unique and precious to us. The fact of having a presence here is the best tool that we have to achieve those high aims of quality and design standards.

Steven从来不想让公司（扩张）太大，我们对此很是感激，因为它让我们可以更加紧密地在一起工作，将时间更多地花在设计有趣而独特的项目上。我们办公室没有明确的分工，我们不会将一个项目的工作拆分给不同办公室去做，而是所有办公室共同合作完成。而正是由于我们的团队不大，才使得我们可以采用这种工作方式。我们会深入参与到每个项目的方方面面。显然，Steven是公司的主创，所有设计决定都要经过他确认；但是在Steven的设计概念的基础上，项目团队有很大的发挥余地。在中国的项目中，我们会时刻与Steven以及纽约团队保持联络。对于大型建筑项目，我们会从概念阶段一直参与到施工管理。Steven会提供有趣而丰富的设计概念和草图，也为项目团队留下了极为巨大的实验空间。

我们公司不是想靠做很多项目这种业务形态来赚钱的。我们挑选项目，选择能够共同合作的业主。如果我们能够有幸与一位业主展开合作，那就说明这个项目是我们真心希望发展的。一旦你和业主有着相同的愿景，你就站在了一个十分坚实的基础之上。正因如此，我们不会在同一时间接手许多项目。我们宁愿在较少的项目上花费较多精力，也不想在较多的项目上花费较少的精力，很不幸现在许多公司选择了后者的工作方式。综上所述，团队规模对我们来说完全不成问题。

Steven never wanted to have a big office, and we’re very grateful for that vision because it allows us to work closertogether, and spend more time researching and designing projects that are interesting and unique. We don’t have a system that one office does one thing; another office does another thing. We don’t split the work of a project, it’s all about collaboration, and we can afford that because we’re not a large team as a corporate office is. We’re very much involved in every phase of the project. Steven obviously is the lead designer. All design decisions go through him, but there’s an incredible amount of room in the project team to design these projects that we do with Steven, following Steven’s concepts. We are in constant communication with him personally, and with the New York team in projects that we have in Asia for instance. For a big project of architecture, we’re very much involved through concept design all the way through construction administration. Steven provides ideas and sketches that are very rich on those concepts, but they allow a tremendous amount of leeway for experimentation by the project team.

We don’t have a business model that is based on volume. We select projects and we select good collaborations with clients. If we are fortunate to establish a collaboration with a client, those are the projects that we want to really develop. Once you can see the same vision with a client, you are on a very strong footing. So at any given time, we’re not having too many projects for that particular reason. We’d rather work more on fewer projects than work less on a greater number of projects, like many companies unfortunately are doing these days. Therefore, team size is never a problem at all.

2. 上海COFCO文体中心与医疗服务站由两栋不规则造型的混凝土建筑和一片公园组成，旨在成为一个供所有人使用的社区公共空间。在中国的住区环境中，公共建筑如何能够实现更好的社区营造？
Shanghai COFCO Cultural and Health Center is composed of two irregular concrete building volumes and a park, aiming to create a public space for the community. How do you think public architecture can contribute to achieving better community in China’s residential environment?

我们不仅在公共项目上，在私人项目上也很关注公共空间营造的问题。如果你仔细看我们的工作，尤其是在中国的项目，就会明确地看出我们创造公共空间的意图。当代MOMA项目的中心有一片巨大的公共空间，这种手法也被运用在了成都的来福士项目中。后者拥有一片12000平米的巨大广场，与人民南路——这条城市的主干道相连，成为了更大范围内的公共空间网络的一部分。

哪怕是在私人项目里，我们也可以成功地植入这些公共空间。上海中粮南桥半岛文体中心与医疗服务站虽然是一个公共项目，但其功能本身在公共空间中创造出了不同的环境，形成了各式各样的市民空间。尽管项目还没有彻底完成，不同年龄的人们已经来到这里开展活动，享受公共空间，使其变成了一个有趣的场所。

I would extend this question not only to public projects, but also to private projects. If you look at our body of work, especially the ones here in China, you will definitely identify our aim at creating public spaces. The Linked Hybrid, which you just visited, has a big public space in the center, more so our Raffles project in Chengdu, the Sliced Porosity Block. That one has a 12,000-square-meter plaza connected to Renminnanlu, and by being connected to the main artery of the city, is part of the larger vernacular network of public spaces.

We have been able to successfully implement these public spaces, even in private projects. The Cultural and Health Center project in Shanghai is slightly different because it’s a public project, in which case the programs themselves create a different environment in that public space. It becomes a civic space of sorts. It’s an interesting place right now, because the project is not technically finished, but people have already claimed that public space. It is already active with people of all generations coming out and enjoying the public space.

▼上海COFCO文体中心和医疗服务站鸟瞰（点击这里查看更多）
aerial viewe of Shanghai COFCO Cultural and Health Center (click HERE to view more) ©AOG Vision

文体中心本身是一栋有趣的服务社区的建筑，社区成员可以自行决定其中的功能。他们可以在这里展示自己的艺术作品，举办适合社区的文化活动。这栋建筑真正体现了社区所想，也是其独特所在。另一方面，经历过新冠的洗礼，人们意识到了医疗服务站这类卫星医疗设施对社区的益处。这段时间中国项目的顺利发展让我们心存感激，也意识到了健康是无上的，而此类建筑将会促进健康生活。于是，在这个项目里我们有了公共空间，有了为社区服务的健康设施，也有了一栋文化建筑让社区展现自己的文化。它们与当地文化相得益彰，在公共项目中大放异彩。

人与空间的关系随项目和地点而变化。你设计了一个空间，赋予了它一些特点，如景观、遮阳、尺度等等，使其成为了一个公共空间。之后这个空间中会发生的事情完全取决于社区。随着时间流逝，公共空间会根据社区需求发生改变，这正是其美妙之处。

The Cultural Center itself is also an interesting building that serves the community, because the community itself will determine the programming of that building. They will exhibit their art and create cultural events that are proper of the community. It’s a true expression of what the community wants to do with that building, which is unique. And the Health Center, on the other hand, one can think nowadays during a post-covid era, how beneficial it would be for any community to have these satellite health center facilities. One thing that we have learned here is that health is paramount, and this type of building promotes healthy living. So we have the public space, we have the health facilities for the community and also a cultural building that allows the expression of the culture from the community. I think that obviously complements local culture and allows them to flourish through public projects. The relationship between people and space depends on the project and on the place.

You design the space, obviously, and you give it some characteristics, such as landscape, shading, scale, size, etc., to make it a successful public space. Now, what happens in that public space is totally up to the community. The transformation of that public space over time is totally up to the community, and that’s the beauty of it.

3. 北京Cifi七里庄在设计过程中面临着怎样的制约？你们是如何回应挑战，实现视觉、功能和景观的统一的？
What constraints did you face in the design of Beijing CIFI Qilizhuang project? How did you respond to the challenge and achieve the integration of visual, functional and landscape elements?

这是一个迷人的项目，有望近期完工，届时你就可以看到它的全貌。项目的基地又窄又长，条件苛刻。其北部是一片居住用地，带来了一些日照和功能布局上的限制。项目不能太大，也不能太小，否则无法在收益方面让业主接受。所有这些都不是挑战，而是我们的设计工具。这是我在和Steven亲密共事的过程中学到的事情之一。当我们必须要关注斜射的阳光时，它便成为了建筑几何形式的一部分。Steven设计了这些弯曲的屋顶收集阳光，让自然光可以一直照射到北部的地块；同时，自然光也可以透过建筑的整个屋顶，照亮全部室内空间。该项目有着十分清晰的概念。限制成为了设计工具，并且最终变成了我们所说的“现象”（Phenomena），即人们在项目中将会体验和享受的一切事物。

It’s a fascinating project, and one that we can’t show you too much because it’s in construction. Hopefully very soon you will be able to see it. It’s a very tough site: it’s very narrow, it’s very long. And to the north of it, there’s a residential plot so, there were some sunlight limitations to it, and programming allocation limitations too. Therefore, it couldn’t be too big, it cannot be too small, otherwise it would not make sense financially for the client. One thing that I’ve learned working with Steven very closely is that those are not challenges. Those become design tools. When we had the diagonal sun cut that we had to observe, it became part of the geometry of the building, in which Steven designed scoops of light, these curved roofs that allow the natural light to go through to the north plot, but also allow the entire roof of our buildings to bring natural light to all the spaces inside. Limitations become design tools and they become what we call phenomena, things that people will experience and will enjoy. There was a very clear concept there.

▼北京Cifi七里庄项目设计草图（点击这里查看更多）
design sketch of Beijing Cifi Qilizhuang project (click HERE to view more) ©Steven Holl

▼北京Cifi七里庄，阳光透过屋顶照入室内
Beijing Cifi Qilizhuang project, sunlight pouring into the space through the roof ©Steven Holl Architects

在我看来，北京并不是一个对行人十分友好的城市。这里的城市区块过长，当你下了地铁后，往往需要走二、三十分钟才能到达自己的目的地。在CIFI项目中，由于基地很长，我们决定将其打断，使它变得通透。这便是Steven在这栋建筑中提出的“最大化的通透性”。行人可以通过建筑穿越地块，这是该项目的独特之处。我认为规划部门很喜欢这个想法，因为我们真正做到了让行人穿过地块，几乎没有人会这么操作。渗透性也带来了自然光，让自然光可以照射到建筑中的各个场所，甚至包括地下层，在那里我们设置了一个会议中心和一些零售业态。此外，由于项目实在是太长了，Steven将其打断成了四栋不同的塔楼，我们在其中创造了许多花园。哪怕你不在一层，你依然可以走出建筑，进入景观区域，在气候舒适的季节中享受户外生活。这些都是该项目的优势所在。

Maybe you will agree with me that Beijing is not a very pedestrian-friendly city. City blocks are too long. When you get out of the subway, you have to walk 20 or 30 minutes to get anywhere. In that plot, because it’s so long, we decided to break it, make it porous. Steven talks about “maximum porosity” in that building. We allow the building to allow people to go through the plot, which was unique. I think the planning department really liked that as well because you’re really allowing people to go through your property. Nobody really does that as much. That porosity also allowed for natural light to go inside of all the places in the building, including the basement floor, where we have program spaces, a convention center and some retail. So we have natural light through that porosity. In addition to that, because the project is so long and Steven wanted to break it into four different towers, we created gardens between the towers. Even if you’re not on the ground floor, you will have a landscape area to go out and enjoy the outdoors in the months that are enjoyable in Beijing. All those things are inside our project.

4. 在中国，你们可以尝试一些在美国不能实现的项目。请谈一谈你们是如何与中国团队合作，将一些困难的概念和复杂的结构变为可能的？
In China, you seem to have more opportunities to experiment with projects that would never be realized in the United States. Could you share us with your experience of collaborating with the Chinese teams to make some difficult concepts and complex structures possible?

我们十分感谢中国带给我们的机遇。我们已经在这里待了15年，不断做着目标更高的项目。在项目的开发中，我们会做到比市场对特定地块的期待更高。项目总是要向容积率和分区等要求妥协，但我们可以做得更多。我们提供想法，有趣的形态，以及丰富的体验。

最好的合作者是那些希望比自己平时在其他项目中做得更多的人。他们理解这个项目的独特性，理解项目的理念需要一个不一样的几何形态。当代MOMA要求每栋建筑之间由连桥连接。如何设计这些连桥？如何建造？如何安装？这对于结构工程师来说是新的挑战。部分结构工程师并不关心与我们的合作，但有些人在意，如中国建筑研究院的肖博士，他是我们的好朋友，理解我们的概念，并且希望参与到设计挑战中，创造一些比其他商业项目更有趣的东西。

We’re very grateful for our opportunities in this country. We’ve been here for 15 years and we continue to do projects that are of higher aspirations. Because of that, we develop projects that do more than what the market demands of a particular site, which always comply with the GFA and all the zoning. But we do more. We provide an idea, interesting shapes and interesting experiences.

The best collaborators are the ones that want to do more than what they normally would do in another project. They understand that this project is unique, because the idea demands a different geometry. In the Linked Hybrid, it demands that every building has a bridge. How to do the bridge, how to design it, how to build it, and how to install it. It becomes a new challenge for the structural engineer. Certain structural engineers wouldn’t care for committing with us, and partnering with us, but the ones who did, doctor Xiao from CABR, China Academy of Building Research, is a great friend and someone who understands the concept and wants to be part of the experience and challenge, and go for something that is a bit more interesting than the work that he would do for any other commercial project.

2007年，我因为来福士项目来到了中国，并在之后的五年中经历了各种各样的挑战，其中之一是2008年的汶川大地震。地震之后，当地要求改变建筑的结构设计。我们制作了一比五十的模型，将它们放在振动台上做抗震测试，并据此重新设计建筑的结构和体块布局。业主Capitaland大力支持我们保留原本的概念，仅将其调整到符合新的规定。这仅是我们获得业主帮助的许多事例之一。

The Sliced Porosity Block was the project that brought me to China in 2007. That was my life for 5 years and we went through a whole series of challenges. One of them, unfortunately was the Sichuan earthquake in 2008. That required the building to change the structural design. We had to build scale models, 1 to 50 I think, and shake them on a shaking table test, and redesign the structure and the massing based on that. The client Capitaland was very supportive of us keeping the concept, but adjusting it so that it would pass the new requirements. That’s just one of many examples.

同样是在来福士项目中，我们设置了一个由Lebbeus Woods设计的名为“光之亭”的艺术装置。这是一件美丽的艺术作品，它的结构十分特殊，由一系列玻璃连桥和玻璃阶梯形成的光束组成，人们可以进入并在酒店塔楼中走动。因此，建筑中会有一个空洞，造成了一些复杂的问题，其中之一想必没有人会想到，就是业主找不到任何人来施工，因为它既不属于结构钢承包商、也不属于装饰钢承包商的工作范畴。当你做好设计，你觉得自己的工作完成了。工程师介入后，项目依然进行得还算顺利。但是谁来施工、如何施工？这个问题也会带来许多严峻的挑战。不管怎样，我们的合作单位和业主理解并支持我们的想法，知道正是设计的概念让项目变得更好。他们愿意和我们共同多付出一些努力，将所有问题最终解决。

If you look at the same project, we have an art installation by Lebbeus Woods, which is called the Light Pavilion. It’s a beautiful piece of art and architecture that you can inhabit. The structure is very unusual, composed of a series of beams of light with glass bridges and glass steps. People can go in and circulate inside the hotel tower. So the hotel tower has a void in it. There are some number of complexities right there, and I can think of one that nobody thinks of: the client couldn’t get anybody to build it, because it didn’t fall into structural steel by one contractor or decorative steel by another contractor. Once you designed it, you think you’re done. When it was engineered, it was still okay. But who builds it and how does it get built? That took a serious amount of challenge to overcome. However, our collaborators and our clients have understood and supported that those ideas make the project better. They will go the extra mile and we will try to make it all work out in the end.

5. 目前事务所在中国还有哪些正在进行的重要项目？请介绍一下未来发展的计划和目标。
What other important projects are being undertaken by SHA in China currently? Could you please tell us about your plans and expectations for the future development of the company?

我们对未来几年的发展感到非常兴奋，因为我们有三个十分独特的项目即将开幕。首先是刚刚建成的上海中粮文体中心与医疗服务站，它将于年底开放。接着便是北京正在进行的旭辉办公楼项目，从各个方面上来说它都将是一次与众不同的尝试，希望大家可以找机会去参观一下这栋建筑。接下来的一年，我们将在深圳完成两栋摩天大楼，即碳云总部大厦项目。这三个项目的类型互不相同，一个是完全的公共建筑；一个为商业建筑，但是带有许多公共功能；最后一个则是总部大楼。它们会带给你三种不同的尺度和建筑语言，对此我们感到十分兴奋。此外，我们还在持续进行着许多概念设计工作。每当我们与一位客户建立起了联系，我们就会尝试做一个概念设计，加深双方的相互理解；在此基础上，如果项目进行下去，我们就可以齐心协力将其完成。

我现在正在积极尝试在北京寻找一些城市更新相关的项目，这是该城市接下来将要进入的篇章。我们所说的建筑更新主要是针对那些需要翻新的当代建筑，而不是去修复历史建筑，后者完全属于另一个范畴。有许多上世纪八、九十年代建造的建筑，由于城市环境的剧变而亟需更新。从这个角度来看，我认为北京有许多这样的工作，可以利用可持续的方式重构并激活建筑，而不是将其拆除。我们可以在原有的结构框架下工作，并将其带到新下一个阶段，这点在可持续设计方面尤为明显。

We are very excited for the next couple of years because we have three projects opening, which are very singular and very different. We have the Cultural and Health Centers in Shanghai that are just finished, it is coming up at the end of the year. Right after that probably would be the CIFI project that we’re doing here in Beijing, which will be a very different project from all perspectives. I hope that people get a chance to go and see it. Then the following year, we are completing two super high-rises in Shenzhen, the iCarbonX Headquarters. Those are three different project typologies. One is an entirely public building. The other one is a commercial building with a lot of public functions in it. The third one is a headquarters building. It gives you three different scales and three different types of languages. We’re very excited about that. We continue to do a lot of concept design work. Once we establish a relationship with the client, we try to do a concept design and try to understand each other and if things move forward, we can complete the project together.

I am very positive right now, trying to look at something that is more about urban renewal in Beijing. We know that urban renewal is the next chapter for this city. Building renovations in the sense of contemporary buildings that are getting renewed. We wouldn’t go into renovating historical buildings. I think it’s another subject altogether. But there are many buildings that were built in the 80s and the 90s, and the urban condition has changed tremendously already. In that sense, I think there’s a lot to do in Beijing in a sustainable way that is not demolishing a building, but rather reconfiguring and invigorating it, working with the structural frame, but taking it to the next level, especially in terms of sustainable design.

▼城市更新项目 – 肯尼迪表演艺术中心The REACH（点击这里查看更多）
Urban renovation project – The REACH at The Kennedy Center for the Performing Arts (click HERE to view more) ©Yuzhu Zheng

在此类项目中我所看到的机遇在于，我们的实践在可持续发展方面十分强大。在当代MOMA和成都来福士项目里，我们都使用了地热井；深圳的万科总部项目中，我们设置了阳光板。尽管如此，在北京改造建筑需要另一个层面的可持续设计和城市更新，虽然我们在其他国家做过这样的设计，但是在中国还从未尝试，期待未来可以接触到类似项目。我希望维持现在正在做的工作，同时向城市更新方向多迈出一步。

The beauty that I see in that, is that our practice is very strong on sustainability. We have geothermal wells in the Linked Hybrid and in Chengdu as well. We have solar panels in our Shenzhen project for Vanke Headquarters. However, renovating buildings in Beijing is another level of sustainability design and urban renewal. It is something that we have not done in China, we have done elsewhere. I’m looking forward to something like that. I would like to keep what we’re doing, but I would like to do more on urban renewal as well.