gooood团队采访世界各地的有趣建筑师，欢迎您的推荐和建议。
第8期为您奉上的是瑞士建筑师Christian Kerez，ELcroquis的145期曾详细介绍了他2000-2009年的作品。而在近期，他在中国有不少有趣的实践作品，让我们看看他有哪些观点与突破。
gooood team interviews architects from all over the world. Your recommendations and suggestions are welcomed!gooood Interview NO.8 introduces Swiss architect Christian Kerez. ELcroquis No.145 reported his projects from 2000 to 2009. Recently, he made several practices in China. Let’s see what breakthroughs he made in new works and what viewpoints he wants to share with us.
Christian Kerez在gooood发表的过往作品链接.Below are Christian Kerez’s projects published on gooood: ：
湖景别墅 House with a Lake View
郑州龙湖CBD区C3-10地块办公楼设计 ZhengZhou Office
瑞士Holcim业务中心 Holcim Competence Center
华沙美术馆 Museum of Modern Art in Warsaw
一墙之宅 House with one wall, Zurich, Switzerland
广州三馆一场国际竞赛，广州，中国 “Three Museums And One Square “ Competition,Guangzhou
▼Christian Kerez
出品人 Producer：向玲 XiangLing 王耀华Yaohua Wang
1
你的第一个建筑很小，但是看起来很重；后面很多建筑很大，但又看起来很轻。近期的广州项目”Three Museums And One Square “仿佛又回到了最初很重的状态，但是又和最初的“重”不同。这个给人感觉不一样的项目，为什么会是这样的？项目及其背景给你带来了什么样的思考，从而有了不同的发展？
Your first project is small-scale, but it looks so heavy; the following ones are large-scale buildings, but very light. Recently, “Three Museums AndOne Square” are returning to the heaviness again, yet different from that “heavy” of the house, why? What enlightenment, inspired by this early project and background, leads to the difference?
Christian Kerez:
Oberrealta的教堂十分低调，形式相当简洁，就像儿童画的房子一样。它的外观看似普通但实际上是一座矗立于风景中的丰碑。它不仅仅是单纯的建筑，而是一座建筑雕塑。建筑是由混凝土整体浇筑的，这种整体式表达实现了其雕塑的质感。
广州项目与这个小项目在某种程度上是相似的。它们看起来都像是立于风景中的雕塑，但是广州项目的表达更为抽象和有机，很像是稻田风景中的岩石。我们采用球形、圆形、柱体或弯曲的线条等简单几何图形共同构成其独特的外观。此外，广州项目的尺寸大小及其内涵也完全不同，它不是代表像瑞士山小镇那样的小规模社区，而是代表着广州这座每年接纳800万游客的中国重要城市的形象。你提到的郑州项目很轻，这是因为我们希望通过无限的变化将120m的高耸体量变成无数个小规模空间。我们采用了很小的建筑基本构造要素，让这幢高楼的特点不再只是“高”而已。它不仅是一次以传统木结构诠释当代建筑尺度的探索实践，还具有很强的实际价值，该设计让大楼的重量减轻了70%，极大地节约了经济成本。
▼Oberrealta教堂 Chapel in Oberrealta
▼广州三馆一场 Three Museums And One Square, Guangzhou, China
The chapel in Oberrealta is very modest, it has a simple form. It is like a drawing of a child, it looks like a very common house but at the same timeit is a monument for a house, that once was standing at this exposed point in the landscape.It is a sculpture of house but not a house itself. This isachieved through the monolithic expression by casting the entire house in concrete.
The Guangzhou projects are somehow related to this small project because they are like sculptures in a landscape too, but their expression is moreabstract and more organic. They rather resemble rocks in a landscape of rice fields. We achieved that through very simple geometric forms like spheres, circles, cylinders or banded and turned lines. Also the scale is totally different and these buildings are not representing a small communityvillage in the Swiss mountains but they are representing one of the most important cities in China, Guangzhou, which receives 8 million visitorsevery year. The other project you are referring to, are the towers,which I designed for Zhengzhou. They are light because they are translating the 120 meter high building into numerous scales by repeating endlessness. Rather small architectonic elements, they review the sheer height of buildings, but as you mention it is not only an exercise in exploring the meaning of scale into a contemporary scale of architecture in China to a traditional scale of timber structure. It Is also a pragmatic, realistic reduction of weight.With the Zhengzhou tower, we could reduce the weight of the building up to 70%, which would also be a economical advantage.
2
我认为你在中国的项目比过往的项目有了更多的尝试。中国项目给了你那些新想法？你对中国性有哪些理解？比如，你曾在郑州项目中提到：“从建筑内部来表达中国建筑的精神。”请解释一下如何从建筑内部表达中国建筑的精神？
I think you inject more new ideas in Chinese projects than into the former ones. Which new ways of thinking do you have from Chinese projects? What’s your understanding of Chinese characteristics? You once mentioned in Zhengzhou Project“express the spirit of Chinese buildings from the internal”, could you please explain more?
▼郑州项目 Zhengzhou Project
Christian Kerez:
我在很多国家工作过，而中国是我最喜欢的国家。这不仅仅是我个人的想法，也是很多国际建筑师的共同感受。我想大部分原因是因为中国的项目规模都很具挑战性，如Herzog de Meuron和RemKoolhass其他国家的项目规模远不能和其中国项目相比。我个人对这个问题也很感兴趣，好奇中国的城市化将如何发展，对现代城市规划或现代建筑又会带来怎样的改变。目前我们已经认识到这些变化通常都是通过建筑去体现。所有国外和中国建筑师都会被问到“联系中国传统”的问题，我个人对此也很感兴趣。
但是我不会运用隐喻手法，不会直观地去呈现中国元素，而更倾向于通过建筑媒介，以及我在这个国家感受到的空间性元素去表现。用抽象的概念方法去表现具体参照物是激发建筑创新的最好方式。
So far, I have worked in many different countries. China is my favorite place to be, not only for me but also for many other architects who are working in the International basis. I think the reason for many architects is that China introduce a new scale to their work. For example Herzog de Meuronor RemKoolhass, they have never done anything which is comparable in dimension to their Chinese projects. I personally also feel very
much attracted by the question if the future urbanistic development in our present day will mostly be happening in China and if the urbanizationof our time takes place in China, how would this change the appearance of modern urbanistic planning or the modern architecture as far as weknow it. How would effect that all this event s take place in China be expressed through the architectures. In this sense, the question, which is asked through all foreign or local architects working here to relate to Chinese tradition interests me a lot.
But I do not work with metaphor, I do not relate too literally to any Chinese common places.I rather try to express through media of architecture,through the space and things, which I experienced in this country that I did experience anywhere else as strong as here. For example, this workingin a abstracted conceptional way with references is always thought as trigger point for a new experience in the media of space, in architectonicalspace.
3
你曾在Leutschenbach学校项目中提到“看起来很贵，其实很便宜，就是忠实我的职业了”。现在中国的很多建设工程，十分昂贵，看起来却很便宜。请多分享几个“看起来很贵，其实很便宜”的案例和实现方法。
In Leutschenbach School Project, you mentioned that “it looks expensive, but is actually cheap. That’s the loyalty to my career.” Now, a large number of Chinese buildings cost much money, but look very cheap. Could you please share more cases which look expensive but are actually cheap? And how can you achieve that?
Christian Kerez:
Leutschenbach学校项目与该城市其他学校相比花费的成本更少，这是因为其空间组织十分高效。整个项目构架十分紧凑，没有丝毫多余的表面。但是，我们采用的建造方式其实是很贵的。所以如果以每立方米为单位来计算成本的话，它可以说是最贵的学校之一。但由于建筑体量较小，因此综合起来还是相当有优势。我想认真区分两件事对于投资者来说十分重要：即愿意将成本全部花费在建筑规模上还是更倾向于体量相对较小的建筑，而从其他方面提高它的价值。我想说，最重要的不是投入了多少资金，而是如何有效地利用这些资金。最后，Leutschenbach学校项目之所以设计紧凑的布局并不是想故意营造出谦逊感更不是因为经济原因，而是希望创造一个没有任何浪费的高效空间，所有空间能紧密地组织在一起。当走进建筑内部你会发现楼梯和大厅看起来十分开阔—这其实是高效空间利用的结果。
The school in Leurschenbach didn’t cost as much as other school built in the same town because the space is organized in a efficient way. We didn’twaste any surfaces, the whole program was organized in a very compacted arrangement. On the other side, the way how we built it was quite expensive, so if you calculate how much it costs per cube meter, it would be one of the most expensive schools, but on the other side, since thebuilding was so small, it was still a comparable school. I think it’s important for investors to carefully differentiate between these 2 things: do you want to spend a lot of money on the sheer surfaces of the building or do you maybe want to make it more compact but then allow yourself to makeit more expensive on the other way round. I would say the main importance is not how much money you spend on the building,it is that it isimportant for you how you spend it. In the end, to organize a school house in a compacted way was not out of modesty or not out of economical reason, but it was to create the space where no space is lost, where all the spaces are organized together and the impression you get while walkingthrough this building is actually that the staircase and the hall are also looking very generous even if they are only the result of an efficient organization.
4
关于限制，当您讲述Leutschenbach学校项目时，我可以感受的出来，不管是造价也好，功能也好，项目本身给了您很多限制，同时正是因为您在这些限制之间寻找一个平衡，或是聪明的切入点，最终产生了非常独特的设计。这样的限制在中国的实践中有吗？如果有，您是如何通过您的设计来协调这些限制的？如果没有，您是如何应对这种外界限制的缺失的？
Regarding to restrictions, I can feel from your narration about Leutschenbach: the project itself had many restrictions no matter from the cost or the buildings’ functions. But you found a balance among those restrictions, and eventually created a very unique design, for example compacted spaces which are relatively cheap but functional. Have you ever experienced such restrictions when you did Chinese projects? If yes, how do you coordinate with the restrictions in your design? If not, how do you deal with the loss of restrictions?
Christian Kerez:
我一直认为建筑设计都存在原则，而在这个原则里又蕴藏着个体规律和密码。任何一个项目都不是简单地去复制现有惯例和传统，我尝试着去超越这些传统，最后设计出拥有自身特色但又符合建筑原则、揭示建筑本质的作品。我想中国是实施这项研究的最佳场所。因为中国一直在建筑中找寻新的规律，而不只是想延续现有常规传统和引用欧洲或美国的标准。
很大一部分外国建筑师设计中国项目时只是一味地照搬常规或沿用他们所认为的国际化元素。另一部分则不管是中国项目还是其他国家的项目都统一按照自己的风格来设计。我的工作方式完全不同。我尝试在不同的项目、不同的地点中寻找新的灵感与思路。我努力地在中国传统文化、不同理念和建筑空间中寻找平衡点，以期打造一个符合中国特色环境的建筑空间，也就是装饰空间、无尽的结构空间或矛盾空间的原则。这么说来，我不仅尝试去尊重对中国建筑传统的诉求，但同时我是用一种抽象的概念的方法去理解这一诉求，从而设计出创新的中国建筑。
My understanding of architecture consist in that I believe architecture is in a discipline- a discipline which has own rules and codes. Each project is not just simply following existing conventions but I try to overcome them, to end up in the end with rules that are strictly related to the disciplineof architecture itself that reveal the fundamentals in architecture. I think that China is the ideal location for this research. Because China is lookingfor new rules in architecture. It doesn’t just want to take over existing conventions and expectation from European or American standards.
A lot of foreigners only fulfill the conventions and expectations that they feel are of international character when they work in China. The othersjust work in their own style no matter if he work in China or any other countries. I try to work in a totally different way. I try to come up with newideas from one to other which are just driven by a new program and new locations. I try to develop out of this expectations to work with Chinese traditional culture, different concepts and architectural space,to find a architectural space which I thought could only be expressed in China andnowhere else, namely the concept of ornamental space, the endless structure space or the ambivalence space. In this sense, I try to respect the expectation for a new traditional Chinese architecture, but I try to approach it with an abstract conceptional understanding of these given scope.
5
当您在描述广州的项目时，您说那些形式”resemble rocks in a landscape of rice fields。而当您回答第二个问题，外国建筑师如何将他们的设计与中国的传统做联系的时候，您说“But I do not work with metaphor”。您是否觉得这两个有些矛盾？如果不是metaphor,您能否举个具体的例子来阐述您讲的”I rather try to express through media of architecture”,中的media of architecture。
In Guangzhou project, You mentioned that the buildings “resemble rocks in a landscape of rice fields”. However, in the answer of the second question about “how the foreign architects connect their designs with Chinese traditions”, you said that “But I do not work with metaphor”. Do you think these two answers are contradictory? You also said that “I rather try to express through media of architecture”, if it is not through metaphor, could you give us a specific example to explain the meaning of “express through media of architecture”?
▼广州项目 Guangzhou project
Christian Kerez:
如果将博物馆看成是花园中的石块的话，那么的确可以说是一种比喻手法，并且与我的惯常设计方法相矛盾。然而如果翻译成建筑语言，以其本身的设计逻辑来看，博物馆并不是一个模仿石块的构体，它不是单纯的存在空间中的物体，而是创造了大量内部空间的建筑。每年广州都会接待800万游客，与巴黎访客数量相近，因此与书法、绘画展览馆相比，建设大型公共空间具有更加实际的意义。该博物馆意在成为新建成景观花园的延伸。其外观是内部空间向外延展的结果。因此，事实上，博物馆并没有类似石头的比喻意义，只是一个拥有完美抽象几何线形的圆体建筑。
You are right if you say that I attempt to build a museum like a rock in a landscape garden is a metaphorical approach and that this is a contradiction to my general design approach, however this approach was translated into architecture and its own logic, the building doesn’t resemble a rock in terms of literal expression, much more important become during the working process, the idea that the building is not a pure object in space, but it’s a object which is also creating most of space inside itself. Guangzhou has 8 millions visitors a year which as much as Paris. Much more important than to have location for exhibition on calligraphy and painting was therefore to create a public space to welcome this huge amount of people coming to Guangzhou. The museum was meant to be a extension of a newly created landscape garden. And the shape of the
volume is created by multiplying the main shell of interior space toward the outside. Therefore, the museum has no literal resembles with rock. It is build out of spheres in a perfect abstract geometry.
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