Overseas NO.17: Zui Tao & Yoko Chang

海外存知己,天涯若比邻。 在海外专辑分享海外华人的故事。希望这份分享可以让世界更加海阔天空。第十七期为您奉上的是在意大利工作学习的陶醉和张叶子。

Project Specs

海外存知己,天涯若比邻。
在海外专辑分享海外华人的故事。
希望这份分享可以让世界更加海阔天空。
第十七期为您奉上的是在意大利工作学习的陶醉和张叶子。

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为什么出国?
Why study abroad?

陶:嗯。答案应该跟「为什么留在中国?」差不多。中国也挺有意思的。

Tao: Yes. The answer could be as similar as: “why study in China?” China is interesting too.

 

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叶子:对别处的好奇心可能是驱使我出国的最大原因。别处在这里既是指令外面的人神往的物质环境,比如中世纪的城市、著名的建筑作品;也是别处的生活,不管是当地人的茶余饭后还是外地人的初来乍到。我对后者有更大的好奇,同时也认为它对我的成长有更重要的影响。笼统说来,我是对不同语境下存在的人的状况和它们之间的千差万别感兴趣,比如米兰的警察骑自行车执勤,意大利既没有星巴克也没有肯德基。要了解到这些,我需要准备一段够长的时间在别处安顿下来,进入一种生活在那里而不是8天10国游的状态。再者,三年前的我从湖南大学本科毕业,觉得有继续深造之必要。综合两者,遂成出国之事。

Yoko: The curiosity of the other places probably urged me the most to go abroad. The place surely refers to physical environments, let’s say some beautiful medieval towns and great architecture pieces, which interest many outsiders including me. But more important and appealing is the daily life there, no matter the routine of locals or adapting process of new comers. In a general sense, I am interested in human conditions grounded in different contexts, say Milanese policemen go to work by bike, neither Starbucks nor KFC exists in Italy etc., etc. In doing so, one may need an enough long period of settling down. Three years ago, I graduated from Hunan university with bachelor degree, then I felt necessary to further my study. Combining with the previous personal interest, I went abroad.

 

 

在国外遇到了什么让你印象最深刻的事情?
Is there anything happened impressed you?

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叶子:你知道米兰离湖区和阿尔卑斯山很近,而我又特别喜欢山,所以经常安排一些短途登山行程。记得两年前攀登马特洪峰的时候,陶和我遇到了大麻烦。虽然是9月初的一个艳阳天,因为海拔已过4000,一人宽的山路完全被冰覆盖,极其容易打滑。那会我还没有专门的登山靴,而陶两年前在冰岛买的「Scarpa」表现也差强人意。终于,在一个路面有倾斜的转弯处,我们不得不停下来,不敢动弹,害怕会滑出山道,滚下悬崖。正正是感觉快要跟世界说再见的时候,两双大手把我们拉出险境。啊,是一对夫妇。他们有银白色的头发、深深的鱼尾纹、结实挺拔的身体、清澈的眼睛和友善的微笑,随便闲聊几句后便离开我们直奔山顶。这是我永远不会忘记的经历—60岁营救20岁。

是的,我的回答是老年人的生命力。在我印象中,很多意大利、瑞士的老年人(法国大概也是。)热衷运动。他们上了年纪但是充满活力:在城市的公园里,我们总是在和白发老人一同慢跑,或是被老头老太骑着赛车呼啸而过;在阿尔卑斯山区,我们在一些长达数小时、爬升上千米的徒步线路能看到比年轻人还多的老年人,有些甚至带着烈酒打算去山顶狂饮。这一切着实让我吃惊,只因其太不同于记忆里中国老人的生活状态。这个记忆简而言之就是退休之后那个年纪或者往上更大岁数的人总是抱着操劳一生、享子女清福的心态,以得到家人的精心照顾为幸事,身体和精神处于相对静态和封闭的状态。

两年前,我妈来看我的时候同样体会了我之前的惊讶。幸运的她在刚刚退休不久就看到了多样生活的可能性,认同之余便开始身体力行。回国之后,她有做不完的事情,比如跟君之学烘焙、实验新的菜谱、旅游、写博客、读上一堆养生的书籍等等。更幸运的我在23岁的时候就知道了这些,比我妈早了30年。首先,我看到了更多的可能性,并否定了那种被大部分中国人认同和实践的人生旅程——年龄会为将身心寄托在子女身上,放弃自治的同时给他人带来难以承受之重的行为辩护;年龄也会为停止求索式「享受」背后的懒惰辩护。(我否认人生会在退休之后终结,享受意味着要停止自我实现。)其次,它让我开始思考怎样做可以获得一个充满惊喜、可持续和高产的人生。从书本和网络可以看到很多启发性的想法,比如Tim Ferris的 The 4-hour Workweek和Stefan Sagmeister在TED的演讲。再者,我有好多好多时间可以一直分享我的想法给其他人。回答这个问题不就实现了一次分享吗?我衷心的希望这样的分享在中国可以激发更多关于有意识的思考生活的讨论,不管他们是二十岁还是六十岁。

▼Yoko Chang on mountain

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▼drawing by Yoko Chang

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Yoko: You know that Milan is quite near to the lake area and the middle Alps. I am crazy about mountain and often do some short hiking trips. Once in Matterhorn, Tao and I got trapped in the track leading to the summit. It was around 4000 meters high. Even at the beginning of September, the track was covered by ice, therefore quite slippery. At that time I haven’t yet got a proper pair of hiking shoes and Tao’s Scarpa (brand) bought in Iceland 2 years ago didn’t do a good job. In the fear of falling down, we kept still and desperately felt we would say goodbye to this world in a few seconds. Then, hands offered by an elderly couple enable us to escape the dangerous zone. They both had grey-white mixed pattern on their hair, sturdy body, bright eyes and friendly smile. After leaving us, they headed for the summit. I would never forget the experience—twenty something rescued by sixty something.

Yes, I would answer liveliness of elderly people. I have the impression that considerable many elderly people in Italy, Switzerland and probably France get involved in outdoor sports. They are indeed aged but full of vigor: in city parks, it is quite normal to see them jogging or riding racing bicycle as quick as wind; in Alps, we can encounter more elders than young people on some routes as long as several hours walking with more than one thousand meters ascent. All the above strongly hit me, just because what I saw here is too different from the living condition of

Chinese elders in my memory. The memory reminds me those of retirement age and up, bearing the idea that life-time hard working ends, children leaning starts, feel happy to be looked after. The vitality of physical body is deliberately lowered, keeping relatively still. The spirit and horizons gradually close up.

My mom who visited me here 2 years ago also got surprised by the very fact. Shortly after her retirement, luckily, she saw how colorful the life of European is. She fulfills her spare time with many activities: baking, learning new recipes, traveling, blogging, reading books about heath and so on. Even luckier, I got to know this at 23 year-old, three decades prior to the age of mom. First of all, it means that I have options other than the common route that most Chinese people follow: Age justifies the sad situation of depending on younger generation physically and emotionally, losing one’s autonomous and burdening heavily the others; Age justifies the laziness of those who cease to explore and learn in the sake of time to enjoy after “life-time” endeavor. (There are two fallacies lying here. Human life hardly ends after retirement, and enjoying does not mean withdraw from self-enrichment.) Secondly, it made me to think how I should arrange my pace in an amazing, sustainable, and productive way. Interesting ideas are many, like Tim Ferris’ The 4-hour Workweek and Stefan Sagmeister’s TED speech. Last but not least, I would be able to keep sharing this for decades. It serves the reason that I answered the question in this way. Heartily hope to raise the question of living in the consciousness of Chinese people, no matter in their twenties or sixties.

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陶:当然有啊,但是太多了,很难排出哪个印象更深。—谈到印象,通常都是可怕的事情更容易让人记住吧。所以像叶子一样,我也想分享一些跟这里生活相关的东西:食物。意大利的食物彻底打动了我,甚至改变了我的口味。

在这三年间,因为生活拮据和没什么社交活动,我们很少去餐厅,最多20次吧。通常都自己做饭。也不知道为什么,从某个时候开始我们的一日三餐就从中国菜突然变成了意大利菜:简单、快速、便宜、好吃。我们开始特别期待下一餐吃什么。虽然喜欢做饭,但是很多时候中国菜还是在时间上奢侈了一些。当然意大利菜也有很花时间的,像著名的「博洛尼亚肉酱」,大概需要8小时左右的时间准备,但如果我们谈平均时间,10分钟搞定的美食比中国菜就多了太多选择。

这样的极少主义真是打动了我,它并不是「看起来简单」,而是「真的很简单」。意大利人发现了把几种最常用的食材完美搭配的方法,你只需要把他们放一块儿,一点不多,一点不少,就好吃。比如「Spaghetti cacio e pepe」、「Penne all’arabiatta」、「Spaghetti alla carbonara」、「Carpaccio」,等等等等。然后所有人都可以做!学习的时间极短,做的时间也极短。太厉害啦。我在这儿不想谈设计的,但是你知道,它真的让我想到设计师应该像一个写菜谱的人,而不是餐厅里的大厨。你可能会想到那种教你优化各种本来就没设计好的东西的电视节目(生活小窍门)——这样的节目很好,但是我觉得应该可以更好。

最后我想极力推荐你们试试「Limone e Tonno」(柠檬和鲔鱼),跟spaghetti一起,6分钟搞定。这是我的最爱。

▼cacio e ova by Zui Tao

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▼croissant by Zui Tao

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▼pizzoccheri by Zui Tao

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▼Zui Tao on mountain

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Tao: For sure yes, but too much to figure out a hierarchy—for the word impressive, normally horrible things prevailing. Similar as Yoko, I want to share something related with life here: food. Italian food fully impressed me and even changed my taste.

In the whole three years, due to our skinny wallet and very few social encounters, we rarely went to restaurant, maximum 20 times. Instead we cook by ourselves. We never no why, but there was a certain point from which we suddenly shift our routinized dishes from Chinese to Italian: It’s Easy, quick, cheap, and tasty. We found we started to expect the next meal. Although we enjoy cooking, sometimes Chinese dishes are just time-wised luxury. For sure there are also time-costing Italian cuisines, like the famous “Ragu di Bolognese”, it costs 8 hours approximately to prepare, but if we talk about the average, there’re far more 10-minute-options than in Chinese dishes.

Such kind of minimalism really impressed me, not in the sense “it seems simple”, but “it’s really simple”. Italian found the best combination of some most common ingredients, and you just put them together, nothing more, nothing less, you get a good dish. Many examples like “Spaghetti cacio e pepe”, “Penne all’arabiatta”, “Spaghetti alla carbonara”, “Carpaccio”, etc., etc. And everybody can do it! Learning process is short, doing process is short too. It’s brilliant. I don’t want to mention design here but you know, it really inspired me to think about designer as a recipe writer but not a master chef in a restaurant. You may think about those TV program teaches how to DIY some tricky little stuffs to solving problems of some problematic designs—those programs are good, but I believe it can be better.

At last, I highly recommend you to try “Limone e Tonno” (Lemon and Tunna), with spaghetti, you make it in 6 minutes. It’s my favorite.

 

 

最想念祖国的什么?
What do you miss most about China?

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陶:比起想念,我觉得还是期待多一些。我太期待中国变成一个更好的国家。它成长迅速,我也在成长,所以变得越来越像个陌生人。但是如果它往一个更差的方向改变,我肯定会想念以前的它的。

Tao: Rather than miss, I would say expect. I expect China to be a better country, definitely. It grows so fast and I am growing too, which makes me more and more like a stranger. But for sure I will miss it if it grows in a worse way .

 

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叶子:老实讲,从来没想念过,虽然至今一次都没有回去过。说想念食物什么没有太多意义,因为这种想念很容易满足。自己做不就好了么。而且,我从书里看到说思乡的主要原因通常都是因为食物。那这样一来,勤于下厨不就不会想念了么。另外,我还得说想回去看看的心意是肯定的。用一双看过各种新事的眼睛去体察曾经所处的环境是很有意思的。

Yoko: Honestly speaking, I have never missed China, though I have never been back since I went abroad. It may be pointless to say only that I missed Chinese cuisine a lot due to the easiness of overcoming so — cook by yourself. Moreover, I used to read that the nostalgia of this kind is largely because of food. Besides, I must say that I would like to be back and see the environment I used to be, but with a whole new pair of eyes.

 

 

你会回国吗?为什么?
Will you come back? Why?

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陶:「回」在这儿意味着什么呢?再也不离开了吗?我想说我没有什么「回」的感觉,只有「去」。如果有机会的话,我会一直去这儿去那儿,但不太想在一个地方扎根。我会去找我妈,但不是回到我妈身边……你知道我的意思吗?

如果我们把这个词换成「去中国」,我就可以有无数个理由啦。去看看风土的变化,去看看人情的变化,去看看各种新的东西。

Tao: But what does “come back” here mean? Never leave again? I do not really have a sense of “coming back”, but “going to”, I would say. If there’s opportunity, I am always open to go here and there, but I do not want to have a clear root somewhere. I will go to my mother, but not back to her… You know what I mean?

And if we change the words into “going to China”, I can imagine countless reasons. Too see the land’s change, to see the people’s change, to see many many new things.

 

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叶子:现在不想。你可能知道,我们总是乐于在各种背景下,与不同的人合作。网络在很大程度上为这样合作破除了地理局限。比如今年我们做的两个项目,一个室内设计和一个标识设计。委托人分别是一个武汉的艺术家和一个在加拿大的朋友。整个设计过程都基于网络,没有面对面的接触。基于我们的实践方式,「回国」这个问题的重要性被削弱了。另外,我很赞同陶的说法,把「回」换成「去」,基于相同的原因。

Yoko: Currently no. As you may know, we always welcome the cooperation with different people in different contexts. The Internet significantly breaks the geographic limitation of doing so. For example, this year we made two projects, interior design and logo for an artist in Wuhan and a friend in Canada respectively without physically being together. Hence, these may undermine the importance of this issue. Besides, I cannot agree with Tao more about the replacement of “back” into “to” due to the same reason.

 

 

出国后在不同的背景下再看中国是否看得更清晰,有哪些感触?
Is it more distinct to view China in a different environment after going abroad? Any thought?

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陶:应该是越来越清晰了,但离足够清晰还差得远。这应该更多的感谢阅读而不是处在一个不同的背景。这个背景有脸书那个背景没有,但很多很多重要的书都在六、七十年代或者更早的时候翻译成了中文,而且相当便宜。自我启蒙总归是第一步,你得先拿到一把尺——当然,如果你真的想看的更清楚的话。

很多人包括以前的我自己,都不太喜欢「清晰」这个词,因为它又西方,又线性,又怎样怎样。但是我现在就对这件事情也比较清晰了。我觉得有两种方式看这个世界,一种宇宙中心,一种人类中心。前者是说人仅仅是这个宇宙的一部分,平衡总是在外部的,我们要是死了,我们该死——简而言之是一种「无所谓」法;对于后者而言,如果你选择了它,你就得穷尽一生去变得更加清晰,即使在你很清晰的知道你没办法或者做不到的情况下。你得找到你的理由去定义什么是一个好的世界,什么是一个更好的世界,人如何能成为更好的人,和更重要的「我」应该怎样成为更好的人。更清晰也意味着可以和别人交流。

有的时候比如说欣赏艺术作品或者要为痛苦的境遇找到出路的时候,我会选择第一种方式,去重新解读这件事情,然后享受,或者解脱;但是在其他的情况下,第二种方式好像是唯一选择,否则就完全迷失啦。

所以回到看中国更清晰的这个点上,我会说第一是你是否真的想看清晰,第二是你是否想成为一个更好的人,和最后你是否认为一个更好的人是一个更清晰的人。我觉得这件事情不必出国也可以做到。当然我的意思是如果我们只是在谈「看」的话。

Tao: More and more clear, for sure, but far from enough. It might derive from reading but not being in a different background. This background has facebook and that one doesn’t, but many many important books were translated in the 60s and 70s in Chinese and extremely cheap. Enlightenment is always the first step, you have to have a ruler—of course, if you really want to see it in a clearer way.

Many people, including me in the past, do not give the word “clear” endorsement as it is quite western, quite linear, quite something. And I am clear about even this fact now. I think there are basically two ways to see the world, universe-center, and human-center. The former one indicates that human is just a part of the whole universe, the equivalence as a whole is always there, if we die, we ought to die—simply speaking it’s a “never mind” approach; the later one, if you prefer this one, you have to devote your whole life to become more and more clear, under the clear fact that you may not, or cannot. You have to find your own reason to define what is a good world, what is a better world, and how can we human become better human, and mostly important how can “I” become a better human. To be clear also means to be able to communicate with the others.

In some occasions like enjoying art pieces or find a way out when being in a painful situation, I will use the first approach, to “re-read” the fact, and enjoy, or release; but in the other occasions, the second one seems to be the only option, otherwise I get lost.

So go back to the point to look China in a clearer way, I would say firstly, whether you want to do it or not, and secondly whether you want to become a better human or not, and lastly, whether you think a better human is a clearer human or not. I think you can do this without leaving China. I mean if we are only talking about “look”.

 

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叶子:肯定更清晰了,但并不是因为离开那里,而是因为自我提升。我相信多活了3年和一秒都不想停歇的吸收让我变成了一个更好的人,自然对很多事情的认知清晰了起来:工作,自己的生活,应对他人等。我对这个问题里的观察和评论对象——中国——还存在一些理解上的困难。比如,我可能会对我跟我父母的关系更清晰,对这里那里的食品质量的差异更清晰,和很多别的更清晰。但在尚未将一个个跟中国有关的具体的事实拼凑成整体图景的时候,这些片段的事实所引发的针对性思考是不足以让我有能力评价作为一个整体的中国。换言之当我可以将中国作为一个整体来理解,那么我有信心说出值得分享的观点。当下还很难保证它们的可靠性。

Yoko: Certainly more clear but not because of being out of there but self-improvement. After living three years longer and being afraid of spending time in vain, I believe that I am now a better person who ought to be more clear about many things: work, personal life, dealing with people, and so on. I have difficulty of understanding the subject of view in the question — China. I may be more clear about the relationship between my parent and me, between the food quality there and here and numerous others. They are pieces of facts and thoughts. Once I could connect all these into a relatively integrated image, which entitles me to understand China as a whole, then I may put some words on the table. Now it is hard to ensure the credibility of the thought I am expected to say.

 

 

最喜欢的艺术家(绘画音乐电影等广泛范围)是谁?给你创作带来了什么影响?
What is your favorite artist? What is the influence?

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陶:像我之前回答过的,我有我最喜欢的食物,但没有最喜欢的艺术家。我碰到过很多激励过我的艺术作品,而且我觉得一半以上都说不出来作者是谁。如果一定要谈人,艺术家的话,我得谈三位我有或者有过个人接触的。他们给了我很大的影响,基于我现在仍然在研究的主题:合作。

蔡凯是一位中国艺术家。他看起来像个设计师,但他是个艺术家。在我刚进入建筑学院不到一年,还在跟其他学生一起强吻安藤忠雄和理查德迈耶的黑白照片的时候(好吧我没做过,但有人肯定做过),他让我认识了他唯一认识的几名建筑师之一:尤纳·弗里德曼。这打开了一扇崭新的门和一条崭新的路,激励了我在接下来的好几年里都对建筑师和设计师报以毒舌,直到有天我觉得不对了。

何颖雅是一位中国/美国艺术家。我在和认识蔡凯差不多的时间认识了她。当时我不知道她在做什么,就是觉得有意思。当我觉得我知道她在做什么了,我也觉得我被激励了。一个人种志的、基于日常生活的、自下而上的方式影响了我做设计的方式。

Wolfgang Weileder是一位德国/英国艺术家。像蔡凯一样,他看起来像个设计师,但他是个艺术家。我们在前面的问题里谈到过「清晰」。

Wolfgang比我看到过的大部分设计师,尤其是建筑师都清晰太多了。我以前从来不觉得艺术家「应该」这么清晰,觉得太清晰搞不出好的艺术作品。Wolfgang却对一切都特别清晰,从如何酝酿一个想法、如何实现它到最重要的,如何给观众(使用者,对设计而言)阐述这个想法。我们聊到「艺术家为什么可以让这个世界更美好」的时候,他说:「起码艺术家不会做坏事,不像科学家。科学家肯定贡献了很多,但几乎能肯定的是他们也为很多痛苦的事情做了贡献。」

Tao: Like I answered in the previous question, I have my favorite food, but I don’t have my favorite artist. I encountered many art pieces that inspired me a lot, and I think more than a half of them I cannot speak who is the creator. If we talk about person, the artist, I have to mention three artists with whom I have or had personal contacts. They influenced me a lot in the sense of what I am still researching now: cooperation.

Cai Kai is a Chinese artist. He looks like a designer, but he is an artist. When I just entered the school of architecture for less than one year and kissing the black and white photos of Tadao Ando and Richard Meier together with many other students (ok I didn’t do it, someone did, I believe), he introduced me one of the few architects he know, Yona Friedman. It opened a new door, and a new way, that inspired me to curse architects and designers for the next many years, until someday I felt wrong.

Elaine W. Ho is a Chinese/American artist. I got to know her at the same period of knowing Cai Kai. I didn’t know what she was doing at that timeexactly, but felt fun. When I thought I know what she was doing, I thought I was inspired. An ethnographic, everyday life-based and bottom-up approach, I would say, influenced my way of approaching design.

Wolfgang Weileder is a German/British artist. Like Cai Kai, he looks like a designer, but he is an artist. We talked about “clear” in the previous question. Wolfgang is far more clear than most of designers, especially architects I have ever seen. I never thought an artist should be such clear, no good artwork in this way. However Wolfgang is clear about everything from how to brew an idea, how to realize it to most importantly, how to explain the idea to the audience (user, in design). It impressed me a lot. When we talked about “how artist can benefit the world”, he stated that, “At least artists never do bad things, not like scientists. As a scientist, you will contribute a lot for sure, but it’s almost sure too that you contribute to something painful.”

 

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Yoko: 真是很难抓出一个人,因为同一个艺术家的作品可能有好也有坏。但这不能阻止我举出一大堆喜欢的作品:今敏的所有动画作品、绝命毒师1到5季、樱桃小丸子、YMO的一些专辑、《周围的事》(2008)和很多很多其他的。和直接影响创作相比,我更觉得它们是通过提出尖锐的问题、引进独特的视角以及带来新的知识影响了我个人的品性。比如村上春树的《当我谈跑步时,我谈些什么》让我开始把跑步放入每天的日程,人生第一次啊。接着,它让我开始思考我的身体在我的生活和工作中扮演的角色。基于我个人的成长经历,在中国锻炼身体从小就是一件口头上说说就算完的事情,几乎从未被教育机构——从小学到大学——和父母认真对待。它总是被描绘成浪费时间、分心、次要的事情和影响学习。小孩被学习和考试填满。家长能做的就是把她们喂得要多营养有多营养,然后让他们一直坐在书桌前面就好。直到现在,我的父母几乎不问我有没有注意锻炼身体,但绝不忘记强调吃多点、吃好点。虽然之前我所处在的环境从来没有针对锻炼这个问题的正确指引,虽然有点晚,但我总算是开始思考如何利用一个健康的身体来实现高品质的生活和工作。创作也自然会受到积极的影响。你看,这完全是托村上春树的福。

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It is indeed hard to grab one person since the same artist may do great jobs as well as bad ones. It does not prevent me from pointing out tons of favorite works: Satoshi Kon’s all animations, Breaking bad season 1 to 5, Chibi Maruko Chan, some albums of Yellow Magic Orchestra, All Around Us (2008) and many others. Other than direct influence on creative works, I would say they are more on shaping my personal qualities by raising critical questions, introducing unique viewpoint, bringing new knowledge bodies and so on. For instance, Murakami Haruki’s book What We Talk When We Talk about Running made me start to jog routinely, the first time in my life. This further led me to think about the role of my physical body in my life and work. In China, at least based on my experience, physical training was handled extremely bad in schools, from primary school to university, as well as in families. Time wasting, distraction, secondary thing and conflict with study were frequently used to describe it. Children were occupied fully by study and examinations. What the parents can do is to feed them as nutritious as possible and keep them still in front of desk. Till now, my parent barely ask me whether you do some exercise whereas always notice me to eat more and good. Although the previous environment never introduce me to the topic, I, myself, got the idea of using properly my physical body for achieving good and better quality of life and work. You see, all because of Haruki’s book.

 

         
觉得自己的作品集有哪些迷人的特质?
What amazing character do your works have?

 

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我们想截取在我们接下来的一本作品集前言中的一些话来回来这个问题。如下:最开始酝酿这本作品集的时候,我们觉得它应该很好消化、最多十页、A4、又酷又有很多好图片、没几个字、可以让我们一下从成百上千的毕业生中脱颖而出然后并为我们赢得一份工作。结果后来它变成了一本书。为什么呢?因为除了还没找到工作以外,其他的我们都试遍啦。看起来没法脱颖而出啊。不懂怎么给人狂喜。换一个角度来看,这本书里收录的项目已经给一些人带去了欢乐啊。他们就是我们设计的使用者。所以,相比用一个表演去满足你对一个应聘者的期待,在这本书里,你可能更多的是会看到一个谈话,告诉你那些我们带给过这些使用者的欢乐——可能我们更擅长这样的方式吧。

当我们谈到设计师和使用者的接触时,通常有三种情形:一,使用者就是设计师本人。我为我自己做一些东西,所以我知道我需要什么和怎样满足它——通过自己的努力。二、为设计师可以直接对谈的一位或多位使用者做设计。它发生在人们有一个想法但不知道怎么实现,或者直接是完全没想法但总感觉有点什么不对头的时候。更多的时候它们会是私人项目;三、使用者几乎无法直接接触到,但中间有代理人:房地产商、政府,等等等等。原因可能会是使用者在这个情形中数量过于庞大从而对谈不具有可操作性,或者根本还没有使用者。这些有可能是公共项目,也有可能是私人项目。

这谁都知道不是吗?是的,它们完全是常识。而事实上让我们觉得开心的是学了八年建筑(陶学了一年经济),很幸运,我们遇到了所有的情形。前面两种通常都有真实语境,有的项目实现了,有的没有;后面两种有的时有真实语境,但从来没有被实现的项目。在这本书中,我们在每个类别里都选出了一些作品,并非完全基于个人喜好,而是更多的参考了我们从与项目有关的人那儿得到的积极回复。

我们很高兴可以跟我们自己、跟使用者、或者跟代理人一起合作。合作的设计方式将使用者代入进来,很难出现任何一步由设计师掌控一切并完全排他。我们长久以来的热情也恰恰是在使这样的对话得以发生并提高效率,当然也时时保持着对它是否总能凑效的警惕和怀疑。更好的合作真的能得到更好的方案吗?什么会组织交流的进行?有没有一种共同的语言可以连通不同的大脑?人们,不管是设计师还是使用者,又怎么能掌握它呢?好多好多问题。

我们这么年轻和乐观,因此不会有任何顾虑去展示碰到过的难题、仍然没解决的问题、和我们离一个更好的设计师还差多远。因此,这本书完全不指望可以说服你,而是希望可以激发你一起思考。为什么、是什么以及我们如何完成了这些项目都被诚实和尽可能生动地勾勒出来。我们希望它能够激起更多面向未来的关于这个话题的思考。

We would like to answer by taking the words in the preface of our portfolio. Here they are:In the very first moment of brewing this portfolio, we thought it to be a digestive one with maximum ten pages, A4, cool and with distinctive graphics, very little texts, which will makes us stand out from millions of graduates and find us a job. Later, it turned out to be a book. Why?

Because except haven’t got a job yet, we’ve already tried all the other things. We cannot stand out. It seems we are not good at it. Not good at fascinating people. However, if we take a step back, we have already made many people happy by the projects shown in this book. These people are users of our design. Therefore, compared with a show that fulfills you expectation of an employee, in this book, you may find more a talk that tells you the happiness we delivered to users — maybe we are better at it.

When we talk about encounter between designer and user, normally there are three types: one, user is designer him or herself. I make something for myself, since I know what I need and I know how to satisfy myself– by myself. Two, design for one or more users with whom the designer can talk directly. It happens since people who have an idea may not know how to realize it or simply have no idea but can feel something wrong. Mostly, they are private projects; and three, users who cannot be reached virtually but through agent in-between: real-estate agency, government, etc., etc. The reason could be the number of users in this case is too big to make the talk feasible, or simply there is no user yet. They could be both public projects and private projects.

Anything new? No, indeed, these are purely common sense. The fact that makes us happy is that learning architecture for eight years (Tao with one year in Economics), luckily, we encountered them all. The first two are always in real contexts and sometimes realized while the last one is sometimes in real context but never be realized. In this book, we selected some of them in each category, not only relying on personal preference, but also the quality of feedback we got from involvers.

We appreciate the cooperation within ourselves, with end users, and with agents. Cooperative way of design counts users in, hardly yielding a piece belongs to the designer who controls everything exclusively. Our long-term enthusiasm is to make the dialogue happen and improve the effectiveness, although still keep the suspicion of its omnipotent. Does better cooperation surely yields better solution? What makes the communication get stuck? Is there a common language that links different brains? How can people grasp it, both designer and user? And certainly many more questions.

As young and optimistic as we are, we do not afraid to show the difficulties we met, the questions we still have, and how far we have to go to be a better designer. Therefore, this book is not only supposed to be persuasive but inspiring. Why, what and how we did the projects were elaborated honestly and vividly, by which we hope that more thoughts could be aroused on the issue definitely towards the future.

 

 

什么时候开始看谷德网的?欢迎你提出建议哦,谢谢。
When did you start to surf on gooood? Any suggestions?

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很抱歉,这个时间可能有些晚,因为我们平时不太关注设计媒体。我们从微博上知道谷德网,因为总是看到别人分享谷德网上发布的资讯。直到你们发布了戴璞设计的博物馆,我们就开始认真的关注你们了。戴璞是我们很好的朋友。虽然我们还没机会去参观他的这个项目,但是多谢谷德网让我们可以从国外欣赏到。另外,我们觉得谷德网非常关注年轻设计师,这对设计界和那些新星们都非常有意义,创造了一个良性循环。

从我们的角度来看,谷德网办的很好啊。除了我们很喜欢的关于年轻设计师和学生栏目以外,仍然保留了很多展示疯狂项目和理论研究的传统项目。很多不同的东西都能在这里看到,因为你们安排的也很清晰。

对于将来,我们希望可以看到谷德网更开放的一面,可以看到更多关于设计方法、意识以及设计前-中-后(或者说故事)的讨论,而非被设计新鲜出炉的样子塞满眼球。使用者也是应该被更多考虑的对象,他们可以告诉读者们一个更全面的「设计」。

Yoko&Tao: We are sorry to say it was a bit late, since we didn’t pay much attention to design medias. We got to know gooood on Weibo, since people frequently shared and talked about the things published on gooood. Till you published Dai Pu’s art museum, we started to focus you more seriously. Dai Pu is our good friend. Although we haven’t yet got a chance to visit the project unfortunately, thanks to gooood, we could see his work from abroad. Moreover, it gave us the impression that goood has strong interest in digging emerging designers, which is quite meaningful to design field and new stars themselves, like a positive circulation.

From our point of view, gooood is run in a good way. Besides the columns focusing young designer and student, which we appreciate a lot, there are also traditional categories like showing some crazy projects and theoretical discussions. Many different things can be seen there relatively effortless, since you organized fairly good.

For future, we hope to see a more open gooood where more different design approaches, visions and processes before-during-after (or we say stories) could be introduced and discussed, other than currently results of design occupying. User group is also worthy to be concerned more, which may give your readers a more fully image and sense about design.

 

 

Project

Door Garden/门园
Year: 2011

在这个项目中,为了柔化一个私密和公共空间的生硬边界,我们用植物装饰了家门。有更多的光照,植物长得更好了。路人驻足观看。更多的欢乐被带入到我们的社区。

来米兰的第一年,我们住在这儿,它有一个直面街道的大门。虽然朝北,它却是这个房子主要的光线来源,因为它的大部分都是由玻璃组成。考虑到私密性,使用了磨砂玻璃。这栋住宅的一层有一溜这样的门,大概本来是做门面的吧。改成私宅之后,私密和公共之间的过度亲密引发了尴尬。不安的感觉会在经过左邻右舍家门口,或者察觉有人驻足我们家门口的时候袭来。

与此同时,我们从超市买了一些小盆植物。它们需要阳光,它们也不怯见人。另外,我们的猫总是想干掉他们。这些促使我们做出了门园,一个在垂直平面上养花儿的有效方法。出乎意料的,它软化了私密和公共空间的边界:人们放慢脚步甚至停下来欣赏,尤其是小孩子;我们在房子里面看到也挺开心,再也不必疑惑为何有人在门口停下不走。两边都不再尴尬。

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In this project, we left some plants hanging on the door for softening an awkward boundary between private and public space. getting moresunlight, our plants grew better. passers-by stopped to see them. more happiness was created in the neighborhood.

Our first home in Milan was this one with a big door facing street directly. Functioning as window also,most of its surface was made of glass,although facing north; concerning privacy, semi-transparent glass was used. There were several of them at ground floor of the building. Theywould have been shops, we guess.Once being renovated into private house, over intimacy between privacy and public generatedembarrassment. We felt uneasy when we passed the door of neighbors, or we noticed somebody remaining in front of our door.

At the same time, we bought some small plants from supermarket. They need sun, they are not embarrassed at people, and our cat was tryingto kill them. Thus, door garden was made, an effective way of growing plants vertically. Surprisingly, it softened the edge between private andpublic space: after it had done, many people stopped to appreciate it, especially kids; we were also happy to see that from inside,no longerwondering why they stopped.Little embarrassment remained on each side.

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为了进一步延伸这样的小互动,我们往玻璃上贴一些小纸条跟路人聊天,简单如「你今天好吗?」一日,一盆我们特喜欢的植物被偷走了,我们便做了个大纸条说「请还回来」。其后便听到一些爷爷奶奶在门外的感叹:「坏人!」

总之它成为了一个尝试,让我们和整个街区的关系更近了些。仅仅是通过一个自己动手、也为自己而做的简单小设计,我们给大家带来一点乐趣也也温暖了门前的街道。

左边的门是我们家,邻居是个木匠。你可以从玻璃的透明度看到公共性和私密性的不同。然而,门园做出来以后,左边的看起来好像更加友善,虽然它是个私宅。

For furthering such little interaction, we pasted some text notes on glass to talk to passers-by, as simple as“How are you today?” One day, oneof our beloved plant was stolen, we made a note, big size, with “please return it”. Then we heard some grand-parents sighed:“Bad guys!”.

After all, it was a try to make the relationship between us and the neighborhood closer. Through a simple design done by and for self, weamused the others and warmed the street.

The left door was our home. Our neighbour was a carpenter. You can tell publicness from privacy by the transparency level of glass. However,after completing door garden, our front door looked more friendly, even it was private.

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You are Designed!/你被设计啦!
Year: 2012

我们上一个家——红伯爵路36号——离米兰设计周一个较大的展场很近。官方的导览图给人们推荐了一条参观线路,从地铁站(也是火车站)到展览区域。它刚刚好从我们的阳台边上过。在了解这些之前,我们只知道我们家正好在丁字路口的交点上。阳台正对着其中一条路,向外看去风景不错。虽然没什么人走动,但偶尔看到一两个也挺开心。

那是2012年四月平常的一天,吃完早饭,我们像往常一样开始工作,同时看到比平常稍多一点的人来来去去。接近中午,人潮涌动。他们有些在路口停下,有些左顾右盼。「一定有什么事!」经网络上一查,我们才第一次知道开头写的那些事。这实在是意外,又好玩。那些人并不是匆匆路过,而是在认真的左顾右盼,找路或是等待些什么。我们一定要做点什么。设计周好心地把这么多观众带到家门口,怎可以把这样绝妙的机会放过!

Our last home, Via Conte Rosso 36, was quite near to one of the exhibition place of Salone di Mobile (Milan design week). Official guide maprecommended people a visiting route from metro (also train station) to the exhibition area. It passed exactly by our balcony. Ahead of knowingthat, we had only known that our place located at the intersection of two road, facing one of them directly. We had good view and felt happy tosee not so many people come and go.

It was a normal April day in 2012. After breakfast, we started to work as usual, seeing a bit more people passing by. As time approaching tomidday, more and more people emerged, many of whom stopped at the intersection, wondering left or right. “Something is happening!” Wethought. Having a quick search on internet, we got to know the very fact mentioned in the first paragraph. It was so surprising and funny.

People not only passed by, but looked around purposely, trying to find the way or waiting for surprising. We had to do something. Design weekkindly brought that many audience to our front door, how could we let such an amazing opportunity go!

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一开始我们把设计周这个事想得太严肃了,总觉得人们跑去看,愉快把自我意识抛开,等着被千奇百怪、参差不齐的设计占领。感到有些不安,我们决定小小的提示一下:「你们被设计啦!」暗示不要迷失你自己、你的判断、你的生活方式等等。在很短的时间里,我们制作了一个横幅并贴在阳台边的墙壁上,仅仅使用了一台家用黑白打印机、几张A4打印纸和胶带。人们很快注意到它:有的开始在展览手册上查找谁是这个作品的作者;有的大声念出来;有的拿起相机狂拍。与此同时,我们在里面观察他们,亦乐在其中,还发现了一些规律:1)拍照的90%是女性;2)拍照的90%是1–3个人一起;3)大于3人的团队中几乎完全没人注意到。

横幅所在的墙又是公共和私密的交界面。而设计周的巨大引力更是大大提升了公共部分的公共性,即使只有一个礼拜。多亏这个好位置,只是加上一条三个词的横幅,我们与一大堆人的对话便建立了。文字、介入方式,和环境的三重模糊性让它极端开放。谁知道人们会怎么解读!

At that time, we treated the event too seriously in thinking that visitors seemed to throw away their self-awareness happily, waiting for beingdictated by numerous different designs, good or bad. We were a bit panic about so and eagerly wanted to notice them “You are designed!”,implying don’t lose yourself, your judgment, your way of living and so on. In a very short time, we made a banner and pasted it on the wall next to our balcony by using black and white printer, A4 paper and scotch. Soon, people started to notice that. They either checked guide map to check ‘who is the designer of this’, or shot it with their big cameras. We also enjoyed observing them from inside. Discoveries are: 1) amongthose who took pic?ture, 90% were female; 2) among those who took pic?ture, 90% are single or in group of not exceeding 3 persons; 3) thosewho in group of more than 3 even can?not see it.

The wall with our banner on is again a boundary in between private and public space. Moreover, the publicity was significantly enlarged by thisfestival-like big event, temporarily. Thanks to the lucky place we occupied, by only adding a banner with three words, we established a dialoguewith a large number of people. It was extremely open due to the ambiguity of the words, the action itself, and the context we were in. Who knows how they thought about it!

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Lamp A/灯A
Year: 2011

两年前搬进上一个家的时候,家里没有可移动的灯具。我们急需一个台灯放在平日工作、吃饭、备餐的大桌子上,于是决定去宜家淘淘看。在那里,我们找到一些价格便宜的灯座和许多变化繁多但价格较贵的灯罩。结果,我们买下了一个灯座,心想:「自己回去折腾一个灯罩出来!」很快,我们有了一些点子,经过试验都失败了。原因有两点:太弱,瞬间被猫打扁;太暗,光的质量不达标。最终,我们把池子里的滤器(也是宜家的)拿来一试,它的形状类似灯罩,材料是些许透光率的白色塑料,上面均匀分布了一些缝隙。结果大好,光线足够明亮且温和。再者,一天之中,滤器被用来把生、熟食的水滤掉仅是短短几十秒,其他时候不就刚好用来当灯罩吗!

Two years ago, when we moved into our last home, we needed a table lamp. Searching in IKEA, we found a lampstand with bargain price while lampshades were a bit expensive. Why not make one on our own? Soon, we got several ideas, tried and failed, neither too weak itself—you know we have a cat—nor too dark the light. Finally, we tried our colander, also from IKEA, with shade-like shape, a bit transparency, and gaps distributed evenly. It worked quite well. The light was bright enough and mild. Moreover, during a day round, draining occupied it for just several seconds. For the rest, it served as a shade.

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工作和吃饭这两类行为被安排在大桌子长方向的两边,一半一半。它们都需要灯光,而我们只有一个台灯,那么它得是可移动的。 因此,使用金属丝,我们在桌子上方的木头梁侧面做了一条轨道,使得灯罩可以来回移动。我们就这样得到了一个灯罩和一条滑轨,那怎样连接它们呢?一个完全用回形针做成的悬挂系统。为什么用回形针?首先,我们从中国带了上千个过来,生怕做模型什么的要用到,结果一直没用上。闲置一年后,它们居然派了用场。再者,它们可以一个接一个的扣起来形成要多长有多长的一串,同时还保有了大量跟自己和其他东西继续连接的可能性,比如用来抓手的软木塞。于是,我们得到了一条可以舒服的用手调节高度的链子。最后,这一切都可以容易地用手完成。我们那会儿可没有什么工具啊。

与一般的设计、制作分离的过程不同,这个小工程是通过直接做与试来完成的。几乎没有什么基于纸笔或屏幕的讨论,一切都在身体行动和物品的组装和拆卸中推进。基于刚好又得体的原则,通过最大化的使用手头有的或可能得到的资源,我们达到了一个关键的舒适程度——它在功能和美学上不多也不少。便宜、容易、灵活、有用,或是好看,你可以用任何词形容它。对我们来说,不同于淘到一件商品摆到家里,灯A不是作为一个物品来丰富我们的生活,而更多的是将我们与这个场所诚实而积极地联系起来,从而让这里慢慢变成温暖的家。

The table had two functions on each sides of its long dimension—working and cooking, both light needed. Therefore, we made it movable by setting a sliding track. The track was made of wire and fixed on a wooden beam with proper location. Now, we got a shade and a track. How to connect them? —A hanging system made of clips. Why clip? First of all, we brought thousands of them from China for model making things. (An irrational action was justified by using them again.) Secondly, clips could be interlocked one after the other, forming a chain, meanwhile yield a lot of connection points. It made the height of shade adjustable in a hand-friendly way since we added a cork to be grabbed. Third, it is very easy to re-shape them by hand, making the whole thing feasible at that moment we didn’t have any meaningful tool.

This project was done through making-trying other than the normal separated thinking-producing process. Discussions were barely based on paper or screen, but body movement and object assembled or dissembled. Based on the “enough but decent” principle, we achieved a critical comfortable level by maximizing the value of what we got and could get, in terms of both utility and aesthetic. Cheap, easy, flexible, useful, or good looking, you can put any word to describe it. For us, unlike buying something and placing, *Lamp A* didn’t enrich our life as a solid object, but do more through bridging us with the place in a honest and positive manner, thus making the place home.

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Strange Faucet/怪龙头
Year: 2013

一看到厨房的龙头,就不能不问:「为什么需要那个把手呢?」这个疑问困扰我们很久了!当双手在盥洗池里沾满洗碗剂的泡泡和油污的时候,我们都不想触碰干净的龙头开关,于是勉强的用手肘调节它。这些经验让我们试着想象一个可以用手肘控制开关、调节水量或者冷热的龙头。就这样,怪龙头出现了。龙头把手跟出水口合而为一,你可以把它理解为一个巨大的、手肘也能轻松操作的把手。往上提升龙头,水花落下,开始洗碗;中途要关,用手肘按下,水即停止。向左旋转,水温升高;向右,水温降低。

Looking at kitchen faucet besides sink, we cannot help thinking “why we need that handle?” The question has haunted us for a long time! Whenwe wash dishes with both hands in foam and dirt, feeling reluctant to touch the handle, we intend to manipulate it by elbow, wrist and arm, evennot so easy. All the above pushed out the idea *Strange Faucet*. The Handle part is integrated into the outlet of faucet. You can treat the whole
body as a giant handle, elbow-friendly. Raising up brings water out while pressing stops it. For temperature, as normal, turning left is hot while the opposite direction is cold.

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Strange Wallpaper/怪屏幕
Year: 2013

通常,使用手机的时候,大家都这样拿着它。现在,请尝试着像平时一样拿起手机。保持手势不变的同时用另一只手接过手机,往前平移15厘米后拍照。你就得到了一张有自己的手握住手机样子的照片。把它设为壁纸,突然,你的手机变透明了!

In using cellphone, people normally hold it like this. Now, try to hold your phone as usual. Keep the gesture of holding hand exactly and use theother hand to move the phone 15cm onward and shot. Then, you get a picture of your hand in holding your cellphone. Set it as wallpaper,suddenly, your phone becomes transparent!

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“Cover me!”/「掩护我!」
Year: 2013

今年夏天,陶从他叔叔那里得到了一个苹果手机,结束了使用诺基亚黑白机的日子。跟大家一样,我们花了些时间找手机套。它们的价格却让人犹豫不决。结果,我们买了圆形的毛毡垫,浅棕色。我们在手机背面贴了两个,用毛毡垫的厚度将手机抬升一点点,从而保护摄像头。屏幕呢?屏幕朝上放着就好了啊。陶也不是会为了几条小刮痕而抓狂的人。因此,毛毡垫就刚刚好,它们有效、便宜(两个毛毡垫的价格仅是普通手机套的1/20)、而且很有趣!

In this summer, Tao got an iPhone from his uncle, what ended the days of using an old B&W NOKIA. Tao had thought to get a cover, but the price made us hesitant. As a result, we bought some felt pads, round and light brown. We put two on the back, using the height of them to lift the cellphone a bit higher. In this way, camera is protected quite well. Referring to screen, putting the phone upside up makes it safe and Tao is not that obsessive about scratches. So, felt pads are enough for him: effective, cheap (2 pads cost only 1/20 of a normal cover), and funny!

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MORE:

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When:2010-present
Where:Italy
Who:Zui Tao 陶醉
From:Haikou, China
School and Office:Polytechnic University of Milan
Contact:
w http://claudeverett.org
e tao@claudeverett.org
facebook https://www.facebook.com/daucle
douban http://site.douban.com/227201/
weibo http://www.weibo.com/u/1793594385

 

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When: 2010-present
Where:Milan, Italy
Who:Yoko Chang 张叶子
From:Changsha, Hunan
School and Office:Polytechnic University of Milan
Contact:
w http://claudeverett.org
e chang@claudeverett.org
facebook https://www.facebook.com/piccolo.zhang
doubanhttp://site.douban.com/227201/

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